Talk:British and American English

houseplant

Merriam-Webster's 11th says: houseplant n (1871): a plant grown or kept indoors.

"pot plant" is not listed

under potted adject., they list (2) "planted or grown in a pot"

they don't have "potted plant" as a noun listed separately BUT, if I check my big old 1935 M-W I think i will find it there. Will report....

Make of all that what you will.... Hayford Peirce 18:35, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Update: the big old unabridged doesn't show "potted plant" as a separate entry. BUT, neither does it show "houseplant" at all! Neither as one word, nor two. Which doesn't surprise. I don't think I ever recall hearing it until I was a pretty full-grown adult and then I vaguely recall being surprised. What? A kind of a plant in a house, what does *that* mean? Today, however, it's ubiquitous.... Hayford Peirce 18:41, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

That is extremely confusing. But if it's ubiquitous, it's the correct from to go in under 'American' presumably.

Another thing: I was under the impression that Americans didn't also say 'autumn'. Would you say that 'fall' was more common? If so, it should, of course, precede. Ro Thorpe 18:48, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I had this discussion with someone else a while ago. As far as I can tell, the two words are absolutely, 100% interchangeable. I didn't know until recently that the Brits didn't do the same thing. Hayford Peirce 19:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Guess what, it woz me! Ro Thorpe 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Housepants?

So if British pants are American underwear, British vests are presumably undervests? I forget what American vests are, waistcoats? And then what is American for underwear (= the whole caboodle)? Ro Thorpe 18:43, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Vests in 'Merka are "vests", "undervests" or "waistcoast", pronounced "weskit" -- and occasionally written that way. If you're really snooty, you might say "undergarments" for the whole schmear. But "undergarments" generally refer to lady's stuff. "Underwear" is for men. When I was a kid, it really mean "underpants", because men wore "undershirts". But that started to change when Clark Gable bared his manly chest bereft of an undershirt. So today, "underwear" really means "jockeys" or "boxers". Hayford Peirce 19:02, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Complicadissimo. I'll leave you to put 'vest' in if and as you wish. Ro Thorpe 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

No one really wears "vests" in the States except as one essential part of a "three-piece suit". I actually own *one*, which I put on sometimes for excruciatingly fancy (and cold) restos in Tucson and San Fran. and I want to impress a Kutie. Otherwise, only Wall St. lawyers and bankers wear them. Hayford Peirce 19:15, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Underclothing: a lexicon, is perhaps what is required!? Ro Thorpe 19:21, 19 March 2008 (CDT) - or, more realistically, a sartorial footnote? Ro Thorpe 13:02, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Eraser johnnies

'Rubber johnny' was the vulgar slang of my schooldays. Perhaps it'd be better as a footnote? Ro Thorpe 19:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I'd remove the condom entry entirely. Hayford Peirce 19:08, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, the family friendly policy, true. But on the other hand, don't you want to protect all those innocent Brits who'll come to the US and be mercilessly bullied by their peers? :) Chris Day (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Naw, not at all. Just because I don't see the distinction. Condom in England is a condom in the USA. Period. Hayford Peirce 19:10, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess I was trying to clarify the confusion. No one in the UK would think you were talking about a condom if you said rubber. I'm not sure what people would think if eraser was used? Probably as in a blackboard eraser. I've been away too long to remember specifics. Chris Day (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

The problem is with erasers. Brits go to America & get laughed at/worse. Ro Thorpe 19:13, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Pavement

It was Chris who put in 'pavement'. I've never heard it in American. Ro Thorpe 18:55, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"Pavement" is used frequently. I think it means the composition of roads in general. "Hayford hit Reaux upside the head with a 2 by 4 and the stunned Brit fell heavily to the pavement." Let's see what M-W the 11th says: 1.) a paved surface 2.)the artificially covered surface of a public thoroughfare 3.)chiefly Brit: sidewalk 4.) the material with which something is paved 5.) plus another long, obscure one.... Hayford Peirce 19:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

It was one that confused me when I first came to the states. I might have the exact American usage incorrect but it is definitely different to the UK. Chris Day (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

See the above -- it seems to cover a mulitude of things in the States. Hayford Peirce 19:11, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

A note on this as well? - Ro Thorpe 13:05, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

rubbers

Okay, let's make this even *more* complicated. When I was a kid, and it was raining, and I was on my way to school, my mother would make sure that I was wearing my "rubbers". These were little black overcoats for my shoes, made, I suppose, of rubber. By the time I was 11, I was aware that "rubber" also meant something unspeakably vulgar. I don't think the word was actually *obscene*, but it was definitely so veddy vulgar that it would *never* be uttered in polite society. I have a feeling that the other use of the word vanished in the 1960s, both as their usage declined and the other meaning of the word became less vulgar. The way "screw" has evolved from roughly the same period. Hayford Peirce 19:21, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, that's actually more clear. Ro Thorpe 19:24, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I suppose today, if one were writing an article (or short story) about an old, set-in-his ways, eccentric gentleman, one might write: "Old Mr. Jones stepped into the vestibule, wrapped his pin-striped raincoat around his scrawny shoulders, laboriously pulled on his old-fashioned rubbers, opened his umbrella, and stepped out into the elements." Short of that, I doubt if you'll ever see the terminology. Hayford Peirce 19:29, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I am informed that the overboot thingies are now called "galoshes". J. Noel Chiappa 22:02, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Wrong, I fear. Rubbers were small thingees that just barely fit over the entire shoe and were semi-open topped. Think of them as being a rubberized slipper that you pulled over your shoe. Galoshes existed then and, I think, haven't changed. They are/were rubberized boots that fit over your shoes, yes, but ALSO about 8 inches or so up your leg. You could tuck the bottom of your trousers into them. And they had snap clasps on them to tighten them around your leg. Hayford Peirce 23:45, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"Slicks", "Slickers". Ha. --Robert W King 12:29, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

More endings

I don't know how to do the phonetic stuff, or I'd have added this one myself; one that I'm always tripping over is 'or/our' endings - harbor, colour, yadda-yadda. And did you list 'ise'/'ize' (I forget which is which now). J. Noel Chiappa 21:33, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Another

In the UK a torch is equivalent to the US flashlight. If I remember correctly the US torch is also a torch in the UK. I suppose the difference between a flaming torch and a battery operated one is pretty obvious in context. But maybe not. Possibly hundreds of British kids burn their sheets at night while reading under the covers? Chris Day (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

In the US a torch is something set on fire. Or a propane/blowtorch. --Robert W King 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Also, a "Cozy" is like a kettle cover (as in "tea cosy/cozy"(?)), whereas "Cozy" means warm, comfortable in the US.

Harry Potter

I know this book was Americanized for its audience here. Is that common in literature? Or was this a one off. Is that something of academic interest with respect to the body of the article. Chris Day (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

A good question. I read so little these days that I don't know. I *think* that some of the best-selling Brits of 40 years ago such as Len Deighton might have had *some* of their really Brit-type words americanized but not all -- some just slipped through. With modern bestsellers, I have no idea. With books that are less than bestsellers, I doubt if any publisher takes the expense to change anything. Hayford Peirce 23:49, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

My daughter reports that her English teacher used to give her a hard time about spelling "gray" as "grey"; she learned the latter spelling through reading Tolkien (and I know she was reading an Merkin edition). J. Noel Chiappa 00:11, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Right. I used to spell it "grey" in my novels until copyeditors and I squabbled over it and I finally had to admit that they were correct -- for an American publisher. So I finally learned to spell it "gray". It didn't help that I had a close friend named "Tom Grey".... ...said Hayford Peirce (talk) 00:29, 20 March 2008

Subway

I seem to recall that in the UK a "subway" is an underground passageway, or something? Is that correct? If so, what's the merkin name for those things? J. Noel Chiappa 00:51, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, a subway is one of those tunnels for pedestrians. As for the trains... the London one is called the Tube; sometimes we Brits say 'the underground'; sometimes 'the metro'... U.S. I have no idea. 02:24, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

US would be subway (NYC) or metro (SF, but really only the trams part, the trains are BART), not sure about other cities. Chris Day (talk) 02:28, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Right, there are local names for the systems (Boston calls it "the T"), but the generic US word is "subway". What I was after was the US term for the pedestrian tunnel - or is it just "pedestrian tunnel"? J. Noel Chiappa 10:30, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Noel is right: the generic USA word is "subway". Various cities have various words -- is it now "The T" in Bahston? It used to be "The MTA", as in the great song by the Kingston Trio. And pedestrian tunnels are, wait for it, "pedestrian tunnels". Hayford Peirce 11:39, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, they renamed it in about '70-'72 or so, don't know when exactly. J. Noel Chiappa 12:08, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Another childish illusion destroyed. Whadda dey sing now, "Get poor Charley off the TTT?" Hayford Peirce 12:15, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Nah, they use the old words. Besides, Scollay (sp?) Square isn't there anymore either! :-) J. Noel Chiappa 15:28, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

ketchup and theatre

One spelling variation that always gets me on this site when categorising is 'Theater' and 'Theatre'.

Also, recalling this from when I was a younger pup and learning British English via Australian schooling, but reading many American books--is there still an American slant for 'ketchup' being 'tomato sauce'?Louise Valmoria 12:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

"Tomato sauce" is never "ketchup" or "catsup" in the States. Tomato sauce is one of two things: a homemade sauce from simmered tomatoes, onions, etc., that may or may not be strained, and may or may not be served on pasta. I myself occasionally make a tomato sauce to serve on meatloaf. Or it is stuff sold in a can (of different sizes) that is more or less like the smooth version of my homemade one. I've looked it up at some sort of bureau of food standards: it's thinner than tomato puree, which, in turn, is thinner than tomato paste. My Bolognese sauce recipe actually calls for about half a can of the stuff, I believe, along with 3 big cans of diced tomatoes. Hayford Peirce 16:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

The er re switcheroo is a common one, meter vs metre and center vs centre. The use of an f rather than a ph i note from time to time, as in sulfer vz sulpher. Chris Day (talk) 13:06, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

The irony of misstaking "f" for "ph" (when talking about acids, sulphur in particular) should not be lost on you, Chris Template:Codewink --Robert W King 13:24, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

You mean there is no such think as an f scale? Chris Day (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I'll add a section about -re/-er stuff. It's already in the table. J. Noel Chiappa 15:44, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

My non-posh London parents never said 'ketchup', always 'tomato sauce'. I'm going to start transferring my other stuff, including 'er'/'re' now. Ro Thorpe 13:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I never heard or said ketchup in the UK. Chris Day (talk) 13:17, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

What's up with the ketchup/catsup spellling variation? Oh, I see this gives it in gory detail. J. Noel Chiappa 15:44, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Table clash

I am going to have to remove the 'other spellings' table that someone else put in, because it keeps eating up the one I'm putting in above it. (Computers are from another planet, etc.) Ro Thorpe 13:34, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

This is a new subsection. I'm going to put the raw stuff in again: I don't think it needs a table, even though my original Word version continues the tabulation. Ro Thorpe 14:16, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

That was me that added the third table; the "different individual word spellings" didn't seem to properly belong in either existing table, so I added a new one. That's very odd that it "[ate] up the one ... above it". No idea how that could have happened. Anyway, where it is now looks fine. J. Noel Chiappa 15:35, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Source of information

Who on earth claims that the British English word for an airport is anything other than airport? I have never seen or heard within the last 30 years the alternative words given here. If you go to any British airport (e.g. Heathrow) you will see that it is called Heathrow Airport.People will laugh at you if you use these words, although it is true that they were commonplace about 50 years ago.

Please note, that I looked only at the first word in the table! I have yet to read the others!!! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:26, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I read, or used to read, lotsa Agatha Christie novels and such like. Those people were always getting into their "motors" to go over to the aerodrome.... Hayford Peirce 21:31, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Hmm, well I wreaked havoc with the table:-) Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:52, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Umm, another one: what the %^& is a "tiffin"? I have never seen or heard this word! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:00, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Maybe it's veddy low-class Brit? My M-W#11 says "(1800) chiefly Brit: a light midday meal: LUNCHEON" -- the people in India who deliver lunches to office workers (lunches prepared by their old mamas etc.), aren't they called tiffin wallahs or something Colonel Blimpish like that? There was a long article about them a while ago somewhere, probably the NYT -- they're thriving, in spite of new fast food restos springing up.... Hayford Peirce 22:50, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I think Hayford is trying for his toff badge. Normal people don't speak like Agatha Christie's characters! The Queen might though. :) By the way I think it was Cha-Wallahs. Cha happens to mean tea in chinese so I presume that word has chinese origins. Chris Day (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

A toff? Ta! I found a NYT article about tiffin wallahs but the date of the article is 10 years ago! Either the Times has messed up its dating system, my memory is worse than I thought, OR there was a more recent article somewhere else. In any case, here it is: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DEFD7123FF933A05755C0A96E958260&scp=1&sq=tiffin+wallah&st=nyt Hayford Peirce 23:15, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Well I guess they were tiffin wallahs at lunch time and cha wallahs at tea time? Chris Day (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

When I was a child in Britain there was a chocolate bar called Tiffin; I later heard that it came from the British India word for afternoon snack, but I have not heard it used to mean lunch, so I'm inclined to remove it... Thanks for all the improvements & for not starting the pronunciation without me: I'll start on that soon. As for the accents they are there for foreign learners who need to 'see' the pronunciation on the correct spellings. They also serve to differentiate between text and example words, although the latter will ideally be bolded eventually. Ro Thorpe 14:55, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

that feline animal that runs pretty fast (faster than the motorcar)

- The pronunciation different is so great that it's almost as if they were two different words. And then when they have to put it in the gair-idge.... Hayford Peirce 21:29, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Are you talking about jaguar? Another is basil, the herb. Chris Day (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yup. Do you mean that Basil Seal (Evelyn Waugh's fine creation) is Baaa-sil in England and Bay-zil in the USA? Another illusion shattered! Hayford Peirce 21:34, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

LOL, there is no way he was ever anything but Baaa-sil. Chris Day (talk) 21:41, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Several more too, yogurt and vitamin spring to mind. And Americans just massacre Edinburgh. Chris Day (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Did you mean Edinburger, Chris? At least the US pronunciation is logical [the poor things don't know about Gaelic roots and the English unstressed vowel syndrome], but how did the "a" of basil get to be so long? The original Greek has the same sort of "a" as English... Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:56, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I was thinking about Edin-borrow. But Edin-burger is there too. Chris Day (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

more food

Again, more differences observed from an Australian English speaker, so I am going to need some confirmation from any of you on either side of the pond on the following pairs: hire / rent, fairy floss / cotton candy, biscuit / cookie? Mainly originating from a discussion with an American pen pal (particularly the hire/rent distinction: I said I hired a video, she said they rent videos and hire hookers); the other two are slightly childish. Although fairy floss seems to catch a lot of my American e-pals by surprise. Louise Valmoria 00:00, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, you're correct on all of these items. Hayford Peirce 12:16, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Cotton candy is the US name, not sure what they call it in the UK. You do occasionally hear biscuit in the US (dog biscuit, especially), but cookie is usually used for the human-consumable kind; biscuit used to be more common in the UK, not sure if it still is. J. Noel Chiappa 00:28, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Even more food; don't forget candy. "Smarties" in the US are rolls of the compressed powdered confections that come in small translucent plastic wraps whereas in brit-land Smarties are in fact like big M&Ms. --Robert W King 10:35, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

OED and ise/ize

I'd never heard that story about the OED and the '-ize' endings (to reduce the number of 's' characters they had to stock). That sounds pretty wierd - I'd have thought they'd want to minimize the number of 'z's, because those are used so little. Got a ref on that, I'd love to find out more. J. Noel Chiappa 00:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I discovered this about 13 years ago when I set up an international academic journal and needed to compromise on US/UK English. Unhappily, I don't recall the source of my information (maybe it was OED?) but the reference for what OUP English actually is [particularly with reference to -ize] is a book in my possession. This is The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1981. I will see if I can locate a reference for what you ask, though. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 07:52, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

On second thoughts, given that I cannot find a reference and may have misremembered (perhaps it was Cambridge UP that shifted from Z to S usage, for typographical reasons), I have modified the statement until we find a reliable source. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 08:18, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

For those who are wondering what we're on about, see this edit. BTW, speaking of the OED, I assume you've read that wonderful book, I think it's called "The Professor and the Madman", about the creation of the OED? J. Noel Chiappa 10:29, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

It is indeed an excellent book. It has also been released as 'The Surgeon of Crowthorne: A Tale of Murder, Madness and the Love of Words', which is the edition that I have, but I think 'The Professor and the Madman' might be the American edition. Slightly ironic how it has different names in Britain and the US! Great book. Louise Valmoria 11:15, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

quibbles

It seems like we could use the help of a linguist with this page. And why do the tables purporting to show differing orthographies have accent marks? If a martian were to come along, he might think that American and British English writers use these diacritical marks in their writing! We should reserve the diacritical marks and IPA for the section on Phonetics and Phonology. I also feel like much of this page could be moved to a subpage with dialectical variants, where the main page has a discussion of different factors in trans-continental English. Also, in re cha wallah and all of that, might we want to broaden this page to a discussion of the varieties of international English (and maybe get our Australian comrades involved), or do we want to keep this page restricted to British-American English?

As a minor point, though it seems like diaeresis should be written dieresis in America, I think that in general, the usage in America is to go with diaeresis. (I would have changed it, but I thought that maybe there is more to it) Thanks, Brian P. Long 11:03, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Maybe we should change the page name to International English --Robert W King 11:05, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

At the risk of confusion with my own name, I think "martian" should be capitalized (Martian). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:53, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Collective nouns

Quirk’s Comprehensive Grammar points out, in 5.108, on the subject of “Collective nouns”, that “the verb may be in the plural after a singular noun, though far less commonly in AmE than BrE.” The first example given is: “The committee has met and it has rejected the proposal” as opposed to “The committee have met and they have rejected the proposal.” 10:36 also covers this subject.Jeffrey Scott Bernstein 13:15, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

The most common example I can think of is that in England "The government are considering...." whereas in the States, "The government is considering...."Hayford Peirce 13:24, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Another difference

In England, Henry Higgins goes to University, then, after too much of Eliza, to hospital. In the States, Zoltan Kaparty goes to the university, then to the hospital. I dunno if there are others of that nature....