Talk:Literature/Draft

OK, let's have at it

After a long (relatively) hiatus, I've decided to return to working on CZ, but just one item at a time -- in this case, the main entry for Literature. While I glanced at the WP entry long enough to see that it was not all that satisfactory, I am writing this entry from scratch. I'd certainly appreciate the advice/collaboration/editing/wikifying skills of any and all CZ folk in this effort. I want this article to read, look, and be an approval-worthy top level entry.

One thing right off the top: I think we need a good image for this page. WP has some old leather books from the Bodleian Library, but I think we could do better. Maybe something like the montage that the Biology writers and editors devised?

I'll be tapping away at this over the next week or so, hoping to get it in general, overall shape.

Russell Potter 12:34, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Names and usage

Many thanks to John Kenney for raising the question of names.

I'm not committed to any one protocol, but agree we should try to be as consistent as possible. With writers who have chosen a one-name nom-de-plume, such as Molière, there's no first name to use; with some, such as Shakespeare, the author is so well known as not to need one. In a few cases, such as the Brontë sisters or George Eliot/T.S. Eliot a first name is needed to avoid confusion.

I'd suggest that we use only the surname, except in the kinds of cases outlined above -- what do you think?

Thanks also for adding Ibsen, his name should certainly be there! I also would like to ask all editors/authors whether we want to list exemplary authors or texts; they can be so useful for illustrative purposes, but it is possible that we could end up in a long series of edits as users put in (or take out) those writers whom they feel are worthy ... what do you think?

BTW, Dionysos is actually the older standard spelling -- I use Robert Graves's Greek Myths and he spells it thusly -- but I am happy with Dionysus as well if that's the consensus. See the reference entry here.

Russell Potter 18:01, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Are we talking about what names to use in this article, or what names to use for article titles? On the former, I think it's good practice to give a person's whole name on a first reference. On the latter, I think if a person is basically known by their first and last name, it makes more sense to use this as an article title. This is certainly how most encyclopedias do it. For Chekhov, for instance, Columbia's article is at "Chekhov, Anton Pavlovich," Encarta's at "Anton Chekhov," and Britannica's at "Chekhov,Anton".

In terms of exemplary authors, I think it's basically worthwhile to list some, but we should be careful to keep the lists relatively short. Discussing drama without mentioning at least some of the Athenians, Shakespeare, and Ibsen would seem absurd, for instance, as would discussing the novel without mentioning Dickens, Tolstoy, and Joyce. On the other hand, you're right that it would be easy for it to get out of hand.

In terms of Dionysus vs. Dionysos, I'll refer again to the "other encyclopedias" test - Columbia, Encarta, and Britannica all use "Dionysus." "Dionysos" is a closer rendering of the Greek, while "Dionysus" is Latinized, but I think that about 90% of usages in English for ancient Greek names in General are to the Latinized version. I'm not sure what exactly the naming rules are here (as opposed to that other place), but I think in cases like this a "most commonly used form in English" rule makes the most sense. There has been a recent tendency towards using the more faithful rendering, but I don't think it's anywhere near dominant. Graves is generally rather idiosyncratic on these subjects, and is probably not a good guide to follow. John Kenney 18:20, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Many thanks for your thoughts here. For main entries (article titles), I am all for full names; when mentioned as figures in a list I am a bit less certain. In your own post, you say "Dickens, Tolstoy, and Joyce," which suggests exactly how I would handle those names (they would of course be piped from wikilinks to [[Joyce, James Aloysius]]. So would you agree, that within articles, we'll just use surnames except in cases where that would render the name ambiguous?

I also find myself obliged to agree with you that we should use Dionysus; it certainly seems to be the reference consensus, though I am always partial to "closer rendering of the Greek" in my own writing. Graves is indeed idiosyncratic -- just what I like about him! -- I only meant, over the years I've gotten rather used to his usage.

Someday, when CZ has its own copyediting style sheet, we can pass over these matters! -- but for now, in hopes that this entry can become an exemplary one, I think dotting all i's and crossing all t's in order.

with many thanks,

Russell Potter 18:45, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

In terms of the issue of first names in general references, as I said before I would prefer to give full names on first mention. In an informal discussion using last names alone is fine, but I think in a formal article it is better to give the full name. This is, for instance, standard journalistic practice, and I think tends to be the way that encyclopedia articles and similar are written. I don't think it's an incredibly big deal, but I'd prefer, "Examples of famous novelists include Charles Dickens, James Joyce, and Jane Austen," to "Examples of famous novelists include Dickens, Joyce, and Austen. The latter seems informal and potentially confusing. Best, John Kenney 18:51, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Prose writers

Is it correct to say that literary prose first appears in the middle ages with Boccaccio? There are a lot of historians in the ancient world - Herodotus, Thucydides, Livy, Tacitus - who are considered to be of literary value, as well as essayists and letter writers like Cicero, Plutarch, and Pliny the Younger. Beyond that, there are certainly classical writers who wrote in a similar vein to Boccaccio - Petronius and Apuleius come to mind as Roman "novelists." To say nothing of eastern works like the Tale of Genji (or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which was roughly contemporary with Boccaccio). And the Bible... John Kenney 18:58, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Good point. Well, perhaps one should say "prose written with a self-conscious desire that it be received as literature" -- I would class Cicero with rhetoricians, Plutarch with biographers, and Pliny with historians. Petronius may be a tricky case -- and with the Tale of Genji we come to another issue this entry faces, which is whether non-Western forms which are, or seem to be, roughly parallel with or equivalent to, the genres or forms of the Euro-Greco-Roman tradition commonly thought of as "Western" should be referenced. I have gone a step in this direction with Li Po -- should we go further? I rather think we should . . .

The other issue, as to whether texts with religious purport such as the Bible, which can *also* be read literarily, ought to be counted, is no less thorny ...

Cordially,

Russell Potter 19:09, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

I agree there's a lot of thorny issues here. But Cicero's and Pliny's personal letters, at least, can hardly be seen as rhetorical or historical works. That being said, I would agree that they don't constitute self-conscious literature - they were letters. Plutarch, on the other hand, wrote the Moralia as well as the Lives, and those were definitely essays, although moralistic essays. Certainly Plutarch would not have been seen in his own day as an "artist," I don't think. But the Latin prose writers of the 1st and 2nd centuries would certainly seem to qualify, I think. And I certainly agree that we should discuss non-western forms. The Mahabharata and the Ramayana should be discussed alongside the Iliad and Odyssey as epics, and I think Genji and the Three Kingdoms should probably be discussed alongside the novel. Kalidasa and No theater are probably worth mentioning alongside the western tradition, too. John Kenney 19:14, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Good points all! Well, I am very glad to have your energies here (I see you are also working on World War I! -- let's edit away and see how things shape up!

Russell Potter 19:25, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Novelistic exemplars

The current list of novelists seems heavily focused on the English language - only Proust wrote in another language. I would suggest a) separating out discussion of the 19th century novel from that of the 20th; and b) including somewhat more writers. Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Balzac should probably be mentioned for the 19th century, as pretty uncontroversially "canonical" authors. I'm less sure of who might be added for the 20th (Mann seems a likely choice). But I'm not really sure. For the moment, I'm just going to add Tolstoy. John Kenney 20:00, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Oh, never mind, Tolstoy's already there. I'm stupid. John Kenney 20:00, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Me?

Russell, Your recent edit reminded me you wanted some feedback re: this article. I'm sorry but I am a neophyte when it comes to literature. Looking through, one thing that might be useful to add is Beowulf. It certainly made a large impression on me when I was a kid. Chris Day (Talk) 22:28, 15 March 2007 (CDT)

Another thing that I found interesting was that Dickens was serialised in the newspapers. This certainly must have had an effect on the style of writing, or maybe not? Anyway, it might be worth a mention; was it normal to be serialised rather than come out with a whole book? As far as modern literature, is there such a thing a pop literature? Certainly the Maus books by Spiegelman were basically a comic strip but seemed to be serious work. But could it be classified as literature? Chris Day (Talk) 22:36, 15 March 2007 (CDT)

Hey Chris, thanks for your feedback -- it's very helpful indeed. We do need some language here adressing the role of periodicals and serialized fiction (I'm an enormous Dickens fan and have done a bit of work on his entry as well). Also graphic novels absolutely need a mention; I am certain that at least some (Spiegelman, Alan Moore, et. al.) *do* count as literature (they're anthologized, taught in literature classes, and picking up the odd Pulitzer!). I'll try adding some references to both -- my only uncertainty is where exactly to place them. Russell Potter 07:24, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

I would suggest that the article is at the moment so skeletal that it may take some time and expansion before it becomes clear where such subjects should go. Discussion of serialization, for instance, would clearly fall into a discussion of the development of the 19th century novel, which at the moment is virtually non-existent. John Kenney 12:11, 16 March 2007 (CDT)