Talk:Archive:Monthly Write-a-Thon/May 7, 2008

How short is too short for a stub? Can I write a latin phrase used in medicine and give 2 or 3 sentences about it, then give the british and english pronunciation? Then link articles relating to this? Tom Kelly 09:33, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

I can't find it to save my life now, but I believe when I signed up I read something about keeping stubs to a minimum of about 150 words. --Todd Coles 09:52, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, strictly speaking, anything under 50 words is deletable. That doesn't mean anything over 50 words is OK, though. As a rule of thumb, I would say 150-250 is a good minimum, depending on the topic, but it could perhaps be even less. See this for very relevant discussion. (That might be what you saw, Todd.) Generally, we want a stub to contain a good definition at the very least, as well as some other solid information, and the whole thing should more or less stand alone. You might also see The perfect stub article, which I wrote back in the early days of Wikipedia. Note that we don't identify stubs as stubs on articles, on CZ. That's a practice I've come to think is ultimately harmful. --Larry Sanger 09:57, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

I guess a good follow-up question to this would be - Is it preferable that we make shorter "stub" type articles for the Write-a-thon in order to open more avenues for collaboration? Or should we stick to larger, more complete articles? --Todd Coles 15:09, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Write-a-thon Template

I figured that if we're going to do this on a monthly basis, we ought to have a template that we can use to quickly place the notice in the main page.

Write-a-Thon! Tomorrow -- from Wednesday, August 1st 0000 GMT to Wednesday, August 1st 2359 GMT we invite all Citizens to come to the wiki, start a new article, and edit somebody else's new article. It's a Write-a-Thon! It'll be a wiki-whoopie, a cyber-social, a collaborative kegger!

It needs some TLC though, if someone could help, that would be great. Thanks! --Paul Derry 14:25, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Love it! Suggestion--could you put in the full time range--I see Larry's done it on the Write-a-Thon page, but that was the first thing that jumped out at me on the Main page--like, okay, it runs from when to when all over the world? (Very bored and waiting for everyone to wake up--finish work and school--by which time I'll have gone to bed!) Aleta Curry 23:54, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

I added an end time parameter to the template, but I think it needs a little re-alignment of some sort... --Paul Derry 00:47, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Very cool, thanks! --Larry Sanger 08:21, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Always love a good party

The ABBA article should be MUCH longer, but wanted to contribute and it was a nice change from my usual topics. In the words (well almost) of the band, in their first single: 'ABBA Needs Love'. Much to improve so hope to see it grow from here. --Ian Johnson 17:27, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Good start, Ian. Aleta Curry 23:56, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

moved discussion

• Ahem!--Notice there are TWO rules here, boys? I'm going to move myself up to the top of the list if you don't edit something! Aleta Curry 20:45, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

er...I see you have to make a substantive edit to another new article. Duh! Well, that does make it harder...never mind....Aleta Curry 23:58, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Personally I reckon that the edit requirement makes for a limiter on the end result increase in new articles, and the new article aspect should be far more important as a day like today is a really good motivator to 'get to' starting the articles one has been 'putting off' for a while... --Ian Johnson 06:17, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, I created an article, and have done several edits today, but they're all minor edits. I'm not an Editor here, so I'm not going to dive into any kind of substantial edits on others' work. And since I'm not interested in being a Porch Sitter, I'm going to just sit this one out. Good luck on it though! --Jason S. Colflesh 12:20, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, I take your point, Ian, but that's just it--the edit requirement forces us not to be lazy. It doesn't stop anyone from adding, you just can't be on the bona fide partiers part of the list; I see plenty of fence sitters and porch people and all. As much fun as it would be to just add stubs, I think the edit requirement is in keeping with our overall "quality, not quantity" philosophy. Ms-write-a-thon-withdrawal Aleta Curry 17:41, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

I probably agree now too. I wrote the first one last night before I crashed, but when I checked back in this morning there looked to be a paucity of things I thought I could edit, so felt frustrated by that. It really gained a momentum of itself though, especially after the US woke up (isn't there a flame discussion waiting in there ;-) with lots of editables - although in the end I went with your Grevillea as it touched my Aussie heart. Then it all got real loose and funky as soon as Anton Sweeney suggested the beer. Good party. --Ian Johnson 17:50, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, I'm about to log off for the night (its officially not Write-A-Thon Day anymore here for the last 17 minutes), but I couldn't go without leaving an apt quotation...

Xander Harris: "Now, Buffy, what have we learned about beer?"

Buffy Summers: "Beer... foamy!"

Buffy: the Vampire Slayer 4.5: Beer Bad

Cheers, and good night! Anton Sweeney 18:19, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Oh, #%^$%^*&%!!!!

I misread the rules! I have to stop now!! Aw, c'mon--it's still August 1st in Maui!!! I was all set to add champagne and maybe sherry...someone has to raise the tone, what with all the beer swilling going on around here! I am apparently in denial about being a write-a-thon addict. Yes...no...I can quit any time I want.... Aleta Curry 17:34, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Why Wednesday?

Hate to throw any water on this here party, not trying to at all, but is there a rationale for choosing Wednesday? Probably is, of course, but it'd be nice to know it.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 17:41, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Don't ask me; technically I didn't even get an invitation to this 'ere party; luckily I've got friends, because a lady never crashes the gate...; Aleta Curry 17:43, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Presumably, it's just the first day of the month. Greg Woodhouse 17:49, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Come to think about it, since it's supposed to be a party, shouldn't it have been yesterday? That way, it would have been a New Month's Eve party. Greg Woodhouse 17:53, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, I was thinking about what else we might do along the lines of an Article of the Week, and thunk up the Write-a-Thon, and I figured, nobody needs permission to hold an article-writing party, and we should have it as soon as possible (so that there would be enough notice), so the first available day happened to fall on a Wednesday.  :-)

Also, I figgered, Thursday-Sunday are usually slow times (so the party wouldn't be as jumping), and Monday and Tuesday don't usually need any help. --Larry Sanger 23:18, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Great party!

I declare the Write-a-Thon a success!

Question is, do we want to tweak the parameters any? Let's do an "after-action review."  ;-) Longer than a day long? More (or less) frequent than once per month? Any other tweakable parameters? Or is it just perfect? --Larry Sanger 23:20, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

At approximately 50 new articles - definitely a success! Personally, I think a monthly "first Wednesday" (or whenever) Write-a-Thon is the way to go. More frequent, and people may get bored with the idea. Less frequent - well, what'd be the point :-P I'd also suggest a gentle admonishment for the Write-a-Thon page, urging authors not to hold off on a planned article till the next Write-a-Thon - publish when you can, don't save something for a special day.

"Rules"-wise and bureaucracy... keep things simple. The 'create an article and edit an article' worked well - as did the categories of partiers (poor Stephen and John!). Possibly add a 'Party Requests' box - an article you'd like to see created? Anton Sweeney 03:15, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Right, I agree with that. But: Party Favors.  ;-) --Larry Sanger 03:17, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Hopefully next time there'll be more advance notice, and more people will be able to get involved. I think once a month is a good idea. I also like the concept of "party requests" or "party favors". Maybe only other partiers should be allowed to request these, and only during the party itself. These policies would distinguish the party favors from CZ:Requested_Articles. Carl Jantzen 08:18, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Perhaps there shoulbe some languge encouraging people to continue working on their creations, but perhaps not. I wouldn't want to do anything that mnight dampen the sense of spontaneity. Greg Woodhouse 07:45, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

The spontaneity and informality of the day were indeed positive factors - refreshing the Write-a-Thon page every once in a while to see who was up to what was fun. I made the beer and Texas Hold 'Em suggestions as a joke - a few hours later, we had collaborative articles in place :-) Anton Sweeney 08:17, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

I thought it was really good fun. Definitely a success. I was nervous when putting in that first ABBA article in case no-one else showed up, but was really pleased with how the whole day went. Anton's suggestion for beer was great and the party atmosphere was a nice constructive and fun one, with no rancor. It felt like a party feels--people's personalities were evident and there was a great energy to it. Was a constructive work result but also a nice ice breaker between CZ contributors who may previously not have known of each other's work. It was really satisfying to see the way that articles evolved so fast yesterday, and helpful in a practical context to me as a new editor to watch and learn in 'real time' as things evolved fast and well. Felt good. I am also really pleased the line... "Beer is a popular beverage at many parties" ...(at least currently) still survives in that article ;-) . Maybe as it develops consider adding a loose "theme" - fairly vague - to each one to encourage people to add party favors to do with that area?--Not a hard and fast thing, but to stimulate creative thinking perhaps. Once a month is ideal frequency. Sometimes new people might think that "everyone already knows someone else but I don't know anyone here, so I won't join in"--perhaps send a special invitation to all new authors and editors especially encouraging them to 'jump right in'--and linking to yesterday's discussion to set the tone at "constructive + creative + fun". Agree with Carl and Anton and Larry re party favors box on the day and favor limited to partiers. I learned that there was power in both creating and editing and fully support Aleta's comments above on that. Also suggest to actively encourage more early arrivals next time to 'get the party started right', which makes it easier for all to get edits started too. More notice= more people = more early starters. Nice day, and thanks all for what was a lot of fun. --Ian Johnson 14:28, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

I must say I really had some fun. The idea was great, and I believe it was a success also because there were not enough rules to define precisely what was going on. My suggestion is, leave unstructured. For example, do not give a theme: someone will show up with some crazy idea (this time was "we should have beer"). It's a party! Just leave the doors open and let people have fun... --Nereo Preto 15:03, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

I agree, the party organized itself well enough. It was a great experience for me too, and it turned out to be a good excuse to start contributing to CZ (I've had an account for a while, but kept putting it off). Receiving 20 mails a day, saying that someone has just edited a page that you care about, somehow turns out to be really fun :) --Ion Alexandru Morega 15:11, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Wasn't suggesting only theme items be posted, or to structure how people contribute on the day, just a broad idea starter for anyone pondering what to create next, and to make each month feel 'fresh' ahead of time, like 'branding' a new interesting topic area each month, almost like a lighthearted challenge. "If you get stuck, write us an article about...". Beer worked really well, but there may not always be a successful spontaneous topic that gets same traction. Going forward every month it may not always feel as fresh as yesterday, which may cause concept decline over time, but not suggesting for a second having a theme as a requirement or any form of limiting structure at all. Yesterday was great precisely because of just how loose it was. That may well happen every time anyway without a theme. --Ian Johnson 17:00, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

I agree with...everybody! I think Ian's right that it may not always feel as 'fresh' as yesterday, but that's the way with everything, isn't it? I also second Nereo's and Anton's 'not too many rules' posts--the 'let's have beer!' suggestion was mad, as my daughter says. By the way--I must point out that I was not the person who moved my name to the top of the partiers' list (though of course I was very gratified to see it there).

I also think there should be some more notification. If you didn't happen to 'surf in' on the 31st, you wouldn't have known there was a party. How about an e-mail to everyone--you could still do the 'special invitation' to new users so they know they're welcome.

I don't think it should be any longer than one day--although possibly we might add, "at any time during the day--i.e. if it's 1st August anywhere in the world, you can still contribute? On the other hand, only being allowed to contribute during your 24-hour time zone is a good spur--I dunno--what do you think?

Aleta Curry 18:03, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

How about a template for personal invitations? Something a citizen can post in the talk page of another one, just because he likes her/his contributions, or because he wants the guy getting more involved, and so on. Out in the solid World, personal invitations to a party work much better than announcements on the walls - maybe it works also in a wiki. Is this mad enough? --Nereo Preto 02:09, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

I like all the thoughts above. A template for personal invites would be great. (We really need a template directory page.) I'll give more notice on Citizendium-L next time. We could mail everybody, but that would be contrary to our policy, I believe. What we could do, however, is write a bot that places a notice on everybody's talk page. ;-) --Larry Sanger 02:32, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

I have an idea (everybody says, "uh oh...")

I think what made this such a success is that there was a shared understanding that everyone would be online at an appointed time. So we could have two-hour "Weekly Wikis." These would be held the same day (like, every Monday) but at three different times (one for Europe, one for the west coast of the U.S., one for Australia/India). These wouldn't be all-day affairs, but just some relatively limited times when people could expect that a lot of other people would be there. And then, it would be run in a similar way to the Write-a-Thon: if you create a new article during this period, or edit a new article, you can list it and yourself on the page.

I think of it as a little like the music sessions I've been in and organized. If there are too many undistinguished sessions in a given area, none of them have enough people. But if there's a big monthly session, it will be a success, because it will draw most of the active sessioners every month. But there can also be weekly sessions, but we don't make as big a deal of it; it draws the very active sessioners, which is enough to keep it alive.

Well, just an idea.......maybe it would be overkill. --Larry Sanger 02:32, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

Meh--no reaction. Probably a bad idea. --Larry Sanger 00:34, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, Larry, I thought about this for a while and previously had started a response, but then was not quite sure how to frame it.

I did like the idea that there might be a way to bring an article to a single 'meeting space' on CZ for the attention of others - something like (and apologies for having an obsessive 'branding' bent:) Citizendium Wednesday Workshop--where it is a page that at any time during each week people can visit to just add in to a list the names of any particular work-in-progress articles they have been working on and then, each Wednesday (or whichever nominated day), interested people can visit the Workshop page to see which articles others would appreciate collaborative help with. There could, perhaps, be a way to leave a short comment on that page itself noting that you had worked on a particular article there on that day.

Different to the Write-a-thon in that it is not so interactive and fast, and you don't need to start a new article as part of being involved, but rather a mechanism to flag up a specific article for the attention of others and give focus to a specific day and space to get and give writing assistance - if you can on that particular day, even for a few minutes or so.

Not a set time period but rather one regular weekday to visit that page to help out. For me personally making it a set time period every week would be difficult to fit in my schedule (and might be hellish for the antipodeans). But knowing that on that day I could find articles that I might work on, or find edits happening so that I can then see improvements to articles I added to the list.

Hope that expresses what I was thinking. --Ian Johnson 08:00, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Excellent thinking. At bottom, the attraction is simply knowing that an announced time is set aside for getting together. You know, I'm thinking that something more general, like just a weekly meeting (or, weekly meetings) would do it. I think it's a good idea. The question is, doesn't it need sort of a meeting place? Yes, and I propose a wiki page. Then the idea is people can do a whole bunch of different categorized things: announce their new articles; ask for help on articles (new or old); ask questions about policy, procedure, etc.; introduce proposals; etc. Then the idea is that people get on the wiki at that time specifically to interact.

I think "Weekly Wiki" is still a good name for this. I think it's not a bad idea. And again, have three meeting times, each meeting lasting two hours (but they all use the same page): the European meeting (UTC 0700); the Bay Area meeting; and the Sydney meeting. Suppose it takes place on Wednesday. Then the Weekly Wiki or the Wiki Workshop takes place at three staggered times, Wednesdays at UTC 0900 (= 7PM Sydney) and UTC 1700 (=7PM Paris), and Thursday at UTC 0200 (=7PM California). --Larry Sanger 08:32, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

What about EST? Not everyone wants to be up at 10 P.M. to 12 A.M. during the week.--Robert W King 08:39, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

I like the idea of having three time spans but I also like the idea of there being a day that I pop in and help or see if I received some editing help at whatever time of the day. If it is set time slots I worry that I cannot really see my schedule allowing for it as client work is often a tough taskmistress. Maybe you have the set day (pop in anytime) for people like me, and also specify three time slots for those that are into some speed-wiki to get together and work "live"? --Ian Johnson 08:58, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, the idea is to space out the three times so that they are as close to eight hours apart, but still convergent with major CZ populations. Note that if you don't want to stay up for the 10-12 PM EST time, you could catch the ("European") meeting that happens at 2-4 PM EST. Alternatively, we can just make the California meeting start at 6 PM, 9 PM Eastern. Hmm, that's exactly eight hours apart, isn't it?  :-) OK, so it would be like this:

The Weekly Wiki or the Wiki Workshop takes place at three staggered times, Wednesdays at UTC 0900 (= 7PM Sydney) and UTC 1700 (=7PM Paris), and Thursday at UTC 0100 (=6PM California). --Larry Sanger 09:47, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

That works well providing three knowable chances to jump in. --Ian Johnson 10:43, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

And I didn't mean to say that people couldn't go and add to the Weekly Wiki page during times other than those times. It's just that those would be the announced times. Would there be more people on the wiki at those times? Who knows? We can try it and see!  :-) --Larry Sanger 12:27, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

The more I think of this, the more I like the idea. Given the reasonably smallish number of regular contributors at present, having a dedicated wiki page and time to work together, it increases the chances of being able to collaboratively knock articles into shape. Some of the articles I have worked on I have been hoping people would leap right in and help improve, but not so good so far. I really hope this weekly hookup idea might suit others as I am definitely into it - just cannot commit to always being available every week. --Ian Johnson 12:30, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

All right--let's try it: CZ:Weekly Wiki. --Larry Sanger 12:55, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

The Morning after the night before

Should we have a more informal gathering over on the forums the day after the write a thon? Something along the lines of; I can't believe I did that last night... :-) Denis Cavanagh 09:53, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

The morning after the second night before

Another successful Write-a-Thon, I think, going by the number of new articles created yesterday. I do notice a pattern of lots of people editing the same few articles, though, and I have to confess when I looked for articles to edit, most were too specialised and out of my fields for me to do anything other than copyedit. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have the new articles and they make interesting reading! But when picking articles to create for Write-a-Thon day, we might want to bear in mind someone else will be looking for something to edit that day. Anton Sweeney 04:19, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

You raise a good point and one that I did consider. I deliberately choose to start hot dogs and Champagne because I though other people might find these topics easy to add too. I also didn't write everything I could on these topics. I left some space for others to add too. If they haven't, I'll add more myself after the party (washing the dished the next day). Writing a article that is too complete could make the party a little boring. Derek Harkness 04:30, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Ditto that--I considered picking things of general interest I knew little about (solar power), and not writing too much, out of fear that having to sort through too many (of my) mistakes would put the experts off. I also gave some thought to current events (lunar eclipse, horse 'flu), which seems to have worked.

The other consideration is the time differential--I can't reasonably edit anything new until the Americans get cracking, which is waaay too late for me...this might be a factor for the Europeans, too? It also feels a bit lonely at the beginning of the time slot--where are all the Australasians, I want to know???

Aleta Curry 17:22, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

That is a good point. Maybe next time, who knows, we could pick a theme, like countries and cities, or famous people, or who knows what. --Larry Sanger 17:44, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

One man's "famous person" is the next guy's "unknown soldier...." Hayford Peirce 17:56, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Yes, I agree with Hayford. Also, Larry, one of the reasons this works so well is the free-for-all-work-on-whatever-takes-yer-fancy attitude, so I'd be hesitant to restrict it in any way, including themes. Aleta Curry 18:22, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, good point. --Larry Sanger 19:02, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Does it means I can still write about Discordian pop culture references in hot dog articles? :-) What do you think about a pop culture references subpage? Maybe it should have a separate category in the Related Articles subpage? Yuval Langer 11:11, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Hey, ho!

Are we having one this month? I've already got an article prepared! Hayford Peirce 14:02, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Yes, definitely! You (i.e., you, dear reader) would be doing a service by archiving the current page! --Larry Sanger 16:14, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

It's archived on my computer in Wordpad form, waiting to be uploaded, by which time I hope Chris and Robert and others have the image uploader working again, since there's a pic I want to include with it. Hayford Peirce 16:48, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

I'm going to make time for it--whoo hoo! No articles planned yet--busy fortnight--hmm...reaching for thinking cap. Aleta Curry 17:47, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Larry, your wish is my command. Archived September event and moved discussion here to make room for the party people.--Joe Quick (Talk) 18:03, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, Joe! --Larry Sanger 10:37, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

I was just doing my own rules, and an idea lighted into my mind. I suggest in any Write-a-thon, editing Anarchy or Anarchism should always count. No real reasons for that, just, it is fun... why don't we have this? --Nereo Preto 09:17, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

Indeed, we should always have fun. We should have had fun a long time ago, but we still have no fun. --Larry Sanger 10:37, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

The next write-a-thon can't come soon enough.

I feel it itchin' already! --Robert W King 18:19, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

If I can motivate our tech crew to get on it, we are going to make a big announcement to the entire (many thousands) base of people with accounts, asking them to show up on that day. If so, watch out--the joint will be jumpin'! --Larry Sanger 18:23, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

Ohboyohboyohboy--can I still be MC??? Aleta Curry 21:18, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

Of course!

If someone were to put up the message on the front page saying, "Be here next Wednesday for the Write-a-Thon," that would be good! --Larry Sanger 13:18, 2 November 2007 (CDT)

A little pre-planning

What do people ('Mercans, at least) start thinking about (and Googling) just after Halloween? Thanksgiving. We have a bare-bones stub, but I think we ought to make Thanksgiving a theme for the month and see if we can't get it to article-of-the-week status in preparation for the holiday itself. --Joe Quick 16:27, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

February is almost upon us!

*tap* *tap* *tap*.... ALETA!! --Robert W King 14:36, 25 January 2008 (CST)

Oh, I'm so glad people are interested! Yay!

Can one of you fellows archive the January page and set up for February?

I thought I would place the Write-a-Thon box on the front page on next Wednesday (week before). Good idea? Bad idea?

Aleta Curry 17:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)

Some advance notice would be good ... might assist your work as MC too, Aleta! Louise Valmoria 06:22, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Theme

Can we please have an Olympics theme for this write-a-thon? They are becoming more and more important as we get closer to the Olympics in China. --Robert W King 10:13, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Could work...what I'd like to see, though, is a theme that will really inspire people to join the Write-a-Thon. --Larry Sanger 10:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)

For my part, I'm fine with people suggesting themes, but *requiring* one would kill us dead in the water.

Seems to me that the reason the write-a-thon works is the free-for-all atmosphere. People don't like being forced to do this, that or the other. Just doesn't work.

Aleta Curry 19:29, 3 March 2008 (CST)

If this is still being announced on citizendium-l, it might be a good idea to mention 2-3 of the theme suggestions (or maybe call them requests?). This will give people a few days to do a little research, should they choose, but of course are always free to write on any topic. --Todd Coles 22:55, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Definitely no requirements--only suggestions. Any other actual ideas??? And not just topics. It could be things like: articles about very obsure topics; stubs; stubs that don't need to be expanded much beyond stubs; articles on topics beginning with the letter "S"; articles on topics that must have pictures to truly be understood; articles about things we absolutely love (now, nothing embarrassing please); etc. C'mon, use your imagination.  :-)

I kind of like the idea about things we love. --Larry Sanger 23:01, 3 March 2008 (CST)

March is here!

Could some sweet soul archive the February page, please? Aleta Curry 20:11, 3 March 2008 (CST)