Talk:French words in English/Catalogs

Oh, this is fine. Did you work it out for yourself, Hayford? Ro Thorpe 15:50, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I wuz channelling Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Albert Einstein the whole time. With a couple of hints from Isaac Newton. Made it easy, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 16:14, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I'm most impressed by you all. Ro Thorpe 17:16, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

It is nothing. I can see farther because I stand on the shoulders of giants. Or some such. Hehe.... Hayford Peirce 17:30, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

amuse-moi

Neither of the "amuse" are in the MW but I see them all the time in the foodie articles of the NYT, Cook Illustrated, etc., so they're certain au courant.... Hayford Peirce 15:05, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

zest vs. zeste

I'm thinkin' here of the lemon/orange peel stuff, but evidently the "zest for life etc." originated with the peel word. But the spellings, at least in English, are confusing, to say the least.... Whaddaya think? Hayford Peirce 23:22, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

I confess I had never heard of 'zeste' & I suspect it's a specialist foodie word, being absent (except for the etymology) not only from my Oxford but also (wait for it..) from Merriam-Webster online! Ro Thorpe 10:59, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

Probably exclusively a foodie word, then. It won't make the cut, hehe.... ("Cela ne vaut pas un zeste" -- "It is not worth a straw" [Harrap's New Collegiate French and English Dictionary]) Hayford Peirce 11:20, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

don't get fresh with me, young man!

I'd say that it's probably just pure dumb 'Merkin luck. It *looks* sorta like "fresh", so why not say it that way? I gotta say, that 51 and a half years after taking my first French class, I still get confused about "frais", "fraiche", "frais de bois" and "lay frez eh lay from boize". Why is life (la vie francaise) so complique?

Well, I put the more purist français one in as well. My first French class was in 1961, I make that 47 years ago. We were taught by a northerner known as Bug. Toto ouvre la pot, he taught us to say, so for a few weeks I thought that doors were pots in French. Ro Thorpe 15:58, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

duvet, retroussee, par excellence... Ro Thorpe 11:14, 15 May 2008 (CDT), nougat, caramel... Ro Thorpe 16:06, 16 May 2008 (CDT) - oxford says rapporteur's from fr., but either way, i have no problem with it - Ro Thorpe 17:48, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

Okie, I'll stick it in, then.... Hayford Peirce 17:50, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

i see you've put the others in too, tres bien - Ro Thorpe 17:54, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

oxford says oenophile is direct from greek, no mention of french, but on the same page in italics is oeillade - Ro Thorpe 12:11, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

MW says "oenophile" is from F, which in turn was from G. It has "oeillade" but says it is from MF. Didn't Willie the Shake use it somewhere? I'll let you figger out what to do about the two words -- here in Tux'n it's only 10:16 in the morn, far too early for me to put my brain to work.... Hayford Peirce 12:17, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

you'd never find me up at such an arctic hour. yes, mw online has oe- joined together -nophile, which is emphatically le style français, so let them both passer partout. meanwhile i've asked conway to send his recently updated list in forwardable form - Ro Thorpe 13:34, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

Is that Conway Twitty? I thought he had died, poor guy.... Maybe from a surfeit of Loretta Lynn? Hayford Peirce 13:38, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

i imagined he was named after mr twitty, tho perhaps 'twas only make-believe -

well, I imagine that in any case he has excellent, tight-fitting genes.... Hayford Peirce 14:13, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

genes vincents, no doubt - Ro Thorpe 14:25, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

missing note

was the one on the french talk page - but you've seen that. thanks for yours. i've had a look at my contributions, + there's a little bit for every day. i've also been listening to the cricket + playing chess - i'm a very average player, but it means a lot of staring at the screen without moving... ah, i see i'm typing on the french page - i'll see if i can't alert you more successfully this time. Ro Thorpe 09:16, 20 May 2008 (CDT)

96 possible new words to consider

words in italics are to be considered but have not yet been entered
words in bold are clearly appropriate and have been entered
words in strike-through text have been considered but not entered
adieu attaché au revoir avenue avoirdupois badinage bagatelle baroque barque barrage beige beret bezique bourgeois buffet bureau burlesque cadet cagoules ? carousel cerise chalet chassis cheque chic cigarette clique college [?] colporteur [check] conduit cravat [?] crèche cretin [?] crevasse crevice dame denouement depot eau de nil encore euchre faux ami faux pas figurine ? grille grotesque guillemot hotel ? image ? j’adoube latrine layette lieu macabre madeleine malice mangetout margarine ? marmalade marionette massage mauve misère ouvert moquette mosaic ? moustache nuance panache papillon parapet parole patois pipette police précis promenade puce queue reservoir restaurant roux sage salon sardine savant serviette silhouette solitaire suede suite tambourine torque unique urine ? velocipede ? vignette village ? Hayford Peirce 17:49, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

we certainly don't need all of those, but there are plenty of good ones - Ro Thorpe 18:02, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

I suggest we apply our standard test -- is it in either MW or Concise Oxford? The tricky ones are "hotel", "village" etc., the ones that probably *do* come from the French but are so commonly in English use that they're really not exotic-sounding.... Hayford Peirce 18:25, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

I added attache and au revoir. The 3 other A's, adieu, avenue, and avoirdupois are all either ME from AF or MF. So I didn't put them in -- this is a can of worms. Add them if you like.... (By the way, I put in BOLD the 5 words on the list that I considered so that we know where we are in working our way through the list.) Hayford Peirce 11:46, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

yes, that's fine. + thanks for email, reply to follow - Ro Thorpe 13:03, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

You mean, "Aux quais!" not the banal OK, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 13:21, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

forte

yes, mw online has a good discussion, but i don't recall hearing any other than the italian pron. ah, yes, ox. gives the silent e pron as american - Ro Thorpe 08:22, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

It's not a word that my low-class circle of friends use very frequently, hehe. I think, on the rare occasions that I have heard it, it's been either way, "fort" or "for-tay", probably "fort" being more frequent. Hayford Peirce 10:35, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

ok. it's also the name of a coffee house chain in britain, i think. pointillisme occurred to me but ox. has it anglicised, sans e. Ro Thorpe 11:16, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

middle French

I think I'm gonna have to change my mind on the exclusion of Middle French words that came over. For instance, "avoirdupoid" is clearly, obviously, 100% French in origin (if one knows any French), so it seems foolish to exclude it simply because it came into English a couple of hundred years before Modern French existed. I've just been checking out MW and "bourgeois" is also MF. It would be nuts to exclude "bourgeois" but to include "bourgeoisie" because the former is MF and the latter is F. What do you think? Hayford Peirce 11:33, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

'a strange or little-known pronunciation' i wrote in the intro, +, yes, i'm quite happy to be inclusive. i can imagine my 11-year-old self protesting 'but isn't ~n'importe quoi bien connu~ a french word~ ... Ro Thorpe 12:06, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

Okie, I'll try to put back in all the MF words that I've excluded up to now. Your son is getting a good education, learning all the important stuff. One of my daughters in Tahiti is always sending me junk videos that she and her faineante friends spend their time at work finding on the Internet. Most times I just reply: "N'importe quoi!" Hayford Peirce 12:41, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

that's fine. what about card games, like bezique, piquet~ Ro Thorpe 10:56, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

If they're in MW or your COD, and identified as French, den dey is in like Flynn. Some French words, almost on the same subject, for instance, come from names, such as silhouette.... Hayford Peirce 11:11, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

yes, they're both in oxford as french - Ro Thorpe 14:31, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

stay tuned at this same station -- I'm working my way down the list from the start, 5 or so per day -- I'll get to 'em.... Hayford Peirce 14:33, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

i say, commendably thorough, old chap - Ro Thorpe 17:38, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

Yus, I change into my evening clothes before doing them, doncha know?

no bullets, please

for each letter - that opens up a huge white space. commas will do fine - Ro Thorpe 17:43, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

To hear is to obey, Milord! Actually, I'm staggered that it is so easily done -- Noel had given me some formatting suggestions on my talk page and they were *vastly* more complicated. But why don't you take a look at them anyhow.... Hayford Peirce 18:00, 24 May 2008 (CDT) - i saw that, no comprenay nada...

Or a " - ". Dunno why I didn't think of something simple like that! J. Noel Chiappa 18:36, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

Sometimes we gotta stand on the shoulders of dwarfs, hehe, instead of giants.... Hayford Peirce 18:47, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

it looks very nice comme ça - Ro Thorpe 13:21, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

Learn to spell, myte! It's comma ça, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 13:44, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

vachement drole...have we got that one~ Ro Thorpe 15:55, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

their speeks thawrpe the speling xpert - Ro Thorpe 18:22, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

Just as long as you can order ghoti for dinner.... Hayford Peirce 18:57, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

chynese tonite, prorns, mmm... Ro Thorpe 11:17, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

Todye is Mammarial Day -- I'm gonna make a special burger plus finish off some Corn Off The Cob In Brown Butter that I made a couple of nights ago. A change from the standard boiled or roasted corn that is standard 'Merkin fare on summer holidays. (George Jones *always* sings "memory" as if it's "mammary" -- I wonder what his relationship was with his mamma, always a major topic in Country songs. I particularly like his take of the line, "If drinkin' don't get me, your mammary will....") Cheers! Hayford Peirce 12:11, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

hey hay, happy holiday, cheers to you, bom apetite - which rhymes with 'teat' - Ro Thorpe 12:18, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

Welsh rabbit.... Hayford Peirce 12:49, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

Exception case?

Can "French" be considered a French word in English?

No, I don't think "Le mot de Cambronne" is an ideal response.

Howard C. Berkowitz 16:31, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

Depends on the circumstances, I would say. I wonder if, in France, there are any people whose surnames are "Anglais" or "Francais"? Or even "Etats Unis de l'Amerique"? Hayford Peirce 16:35, 26 May 2008 (CDT)

lieutenant

i put it in, but am not surprised you didn't see it - Ro Thorpe 09:34, 30 May 2008 (CDT)

monsieur l'artiste, a character by one of my favorite cartoonists, the guardian's steve bell. now, m. éffourde - he talks like that - could you also format the lone soldier, please. i'm getting quite adept at this 1-armed business + may even tackle some prons soon... Ro Thorpe 16:26, 31 May 2008 (CDT)

sorry, didn't understand what you meant. Are you going to move to Vegas and become a one-armed bandit? Hayford Peirce 17:10, 31 May 2008 (CDT)

shay derve

I shay, ol' shap, do Brits *truly* pronounce the "F"? MW and most 'Merkins, I think, juss shay "shay", if as they had been guzzlin' a lot of my mai tais firsh.... Hayford Peirce 13:02, 7 June 2008 (CDT)

such a long time since i heard anyone say it at all. to judge from the yoof on beeb, sky, they probably would nowadays (trying to remember a particularly egregious french spelpron the other night), but of course i'll keep to tradition + alter it - Ro Thorpe 13:51, 7 June 2008 (CDT)

depths vs. deeps

I don't think any 'Merkin except perhaps the most terminally affected says "Depp-oh" instead of "Deep-oh". Trust me here.... Hayford Peirce 17:00, 11 June 2008 (CDT)

oh, i always trust you. that's a good one for the other place, then. Ro Thorpe 18:29, 11 June 2008 (CDT)

faute de mieux

It's either foe-tooey or foe-till, if I can decypher my MW correctly. Geez, it's hard enough to say correctly in French, who wants to say it in English?

indeed, same in online version - well, i'll go with the first, as i was thinking of 'foe toy' - Ro Thorpe 10:03, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

i was wondering if you could have a go at putting in the pronunciations. i still have to rest this left arm, and eva is going to take me to the doc to see if it can be fixed now that school is out (as they say in the usa). there's a huge backlog, and it's really hard with only one arm - of course i'll handle the accents, if you could just put in a few letters, it'd motivate me. merci, patron - Ro Thorpe 18:03, 23 June 2008 (CDT)

Sorry, myte, I would if I could, but what you're doing is purely Rooshian to me -- or mebbe worse, Chinese.... Don't have a clue as to what it all means! Sorry to hear that the arm isn't improving - why not get a bionic one and type 10,000 words per minute afterwards! I'm sure I've encountered it in the gazillion Brit novels I've read, but what is the equivalent of "school is out"? Go down for the summer term or some such? Hey -- GET WELL! I just made a big shaker of mai tais for drinking after my walk (in 103-degree heat yet!) later on and I will dedicate that shaker to your well-being! By the way, that reminds me: "rusticated".... Hayford Peirce 18:35, 23 June 2008 (CDT)

in my day we used to talk of 'breaking up for the holidays', although i don't know if that is still current. - okay, i'll keep doing those pronunciations - someone who understands them might come along eventually. thanks for the dedidation, enjoy your mai tais. chinese night tonight... Ro Thorpe 10:41, 24 June 2008 (CDT) - now it occurs to me that it'd help a lot if you could simply copy the word to the other column...

You mean enter the word twice, once in each column? I can sure do that. And go back and take any existing words and copy them into the next (blank) column? That I can also do.... Hayford Peirce 11:16, 24 June 2008 (CDT)

Great - oh, look, i typed a capital, am i improving? yes, that'll be fine, just let me know which ones need modifying, as i might otherwise miss... Ro Thorpe 12:37, 24 June 2008 (CDT)

hey, tambourine man!

"Tambourine" comes from MF "tambourin" -- but does not exist in that precise form in modern French, nor, apparently, in MF. So whadda we do? Hayford Peirce 12:58, 25 June 2008 (CDT)

we leave it out. you might - just might - want to start a section for this and similarly derived words, but i'd say we have an obligation only to include bona fide french words in our selection, n'est-ce pas? Ro Thorpe 14:45, 25 June 2008 (CDT) - and thanks for the duplicates - a great help.

No hoohah, cobber. I think that there at least a couple of other words like tambourine, which are *very* close to the original French but not 100% so. If I have the strength of character, I'll try to track them down. But I think starting another section for words like this would be a true lexicographical undertaking, with thousands and thousands of words involved. Too much fer me, myte! Hayford Peirce 16:53, 25 June 2008 (CDT)

quite. there was one word we removed in the early days, and since then we've been careful, but if you see any, then RUTHLESSLY ROOT THEM OUT!!!! Ah, a burst of caps, i feel better now... Ro Thorpe 17:42, 25 June 2008 (CDT)

The only real way to do this, I think, is to go word by word through my 2-vol. Larousse Universel and see if they're listed there. I've just done the A's, and they all passed muster. Tomorrow I'll do the B's.

Just finished looking through the B's -- they all seem to be all right now that "ballad" has been removed. I'll try to do the C's tomorrow. Hayford Peirce 13:13, 28 June 2008 (CDT)

Hayford Peirce 11:15, 26 June 2008 (CDT)

I just looked up "au fait" in the COD because it isn't in my MW and I noticed that there many more F words in COD than in MW, such as "auberge". I don't have the strength to go through 1500 pages, however, rooting them out.... Hayford Peirce 11:18, 26 June 2008 (CDT)

no. the list is already very impressive - Ro Thorpe 13:42, 26 June 2008 (CDT)

question marks

john, the schwa signs are turning into question marks - why i don't know - please fix that or your hard work will have to be reverted... Ro Thorpe 18:52, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

Well, the hard work is no problem. I did all of that with a command in notepad++. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to add a "symbol pack" or something, in order to fix it. If I can't figure it out, I could try another approach, or do it by hand. John Dvorak 18:57, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

the learned dr. rheaux's pathetic phallacy

i think yer wrong, myte; can't find it in either MW or COD.... (stitches out of fingertip yesterday but two tips ae still tender -- can't *quite* type normally yet.... Hayford Peirce 13:41, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

no, it's a proper name, so not in dictionary, hence capital. at least 3 musiques are called that. well, i'm taking the pills and there is a modicum of improvement... Ro Thorpe 14:33, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

je vois. but my MW *does* have Bouvier de Flandres. glad to hear of improvement! more anti-imflam.? Hayford Peirce 15:16, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

- yes. my COD doesn't have that but it does have Bovril! AND BOUTONNIÈRE - that's what i get for forgetting to switch off caps lock... - and we've already got it...as for 'pathétique', i think it's an interesting point in the pathetic footnote... Ro Thorpe 16:29, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

let's sit down at the all-you-can eat buffet

and gobble for a couple of hours like lotsa fat 'Merkins who are too frightful to contemplate.... in any case, i think you should note that for the pron. that there appear to be *two* distinct ways of saying it: the Brit way, and, to a degree, a 'Merkin way: boo-fay, and a mostly 'Merkin way: buff-fay. (there's also the Peirce Way: bewe-fay, but we'll ignore that one).... Hayford Peirce 18:48, 27 July 2008 (CDT)

is dat right? Wee, M'sieur! Hayford Peirce 19:23, 27 July 2008 (CDT)

and you say 'byoo-fay'? Ro Thorpe 18:33, 28 July 2008 (CDT)

like the old country singers useta sing, "yew kin do it" or such like. the closest most 'merkins kin git to pronouncing the french "u". i get so useta saying bew-fay, i jist cain't bring maself to say boo-fay or buff-fay.... Hayford Peirce 19:28, 28 July 2008 (CDT)

for a while, a few years back, there was a tendency for british broadcasters - all, i noted, women - to pronounce 'to' and 'too' just like french 'tu', a fashion that fortunately seems to have had its day... Ro Thorpe 15:57, 30 July 2008 (CDT)

tew tew utterly! Hayford Peirce 16:27, 30 July 2008 (CDT)

yu forgot tu sign! Ro Thorpe 16:18, 30 July 2008 (CDT)

cocottes

But fun to eat.... (I also own a number of LeCreuset cocottes, yet another kettle of fish, so to speak.) Hayford Peirce 12:52, 15 August 2008 (CDT)

Antan? LeCreuset? You're leaving me behind here. Ro Thorpe 12:55, 15 August 2008 (CDT)

"Ou sont les neiges d'antan?" "Where are the snows of yesteryear?!" And as for LeCreuset, go here: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=cocotte+lecreuset&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2 They're widely sold in both the States and France -- tres cher ces jours-ci, but they literally last forever. My main casserole, while pretty discolored inside, is still used by me on a weekly basis and it must be 35 or 40 years old. See here: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Image:Bolognese_sauce_preparation_sm.jpg Bon appetit! Hayford Peirce 13:44, 15 August 2008 (CDT)

What our rival has to say about that French cocotte: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Creuset Hayford Peirce 13:50, 15 August 2008 (CDT)

Conway

You tellin' me dat's de name of a Conway Twitty song?! Hayford Peirce 19:20, 16 August 2008 (CDT)

like a house on fire

Ah, didn't understand your system -- it looked to me like you wuz sayin' bloose, not the house-rhymer. I've spent too much time with the French ou-oo-la-la pronunciation.... Hayford Peirce 10:20, 7 September 2008 (CDT)

Ya wín sòme & ya Toûloûse sòme - Ro Thorpe 16:08, 7 September 2008 (CDT)