Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 2

"facilitated the Holocaust"

Richard: good to see you at work on this entry here. The phrase "facilitated the Holocaust", inherited I think from the Wikipedia version, seems egregiously euphemistic, given the known details of Die Endlösung der Judenfrage. I hope we can work here at CZ to come up with a more direct and forceful phraseology! Russell Potter 21:00, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

yes that was a poor phrase and I changed it, and also added detailed sections on his antisemitism at different stages of his career. Richard Jensen 21:25, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Much better. A question: do we want to have a subsection on Mein Kampf, or ought that be a separate main entry, do you think? Russell Potter 17:03, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

Mein Kampf will get a line or two here, and deserves its own article. I've got a stack of Hitler biographies and am slowly adding paragraphs to the main article. Richard Jensen 17:20, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

This article is still considerably inferior to the WP one, which I did some work on until I was driven off by cranks. When I get home to my references later in the month I will have a go at improving it. Adam Carr 05:43, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

the Wiki article is highly unbalanced in terms of topics (it's BAD on diplomacy for example and weak on military) and quality (and uses sources 40+ years old like Bullock, Fest, Shirer etc). This article is "in process," but its goal should be to keep users abreast of scholarship in last decade (see Evans comments on growth of scholarship in into to vol 1) Richard Jensen 06:30, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Yes of course all that's true. But the WP article is still more comprehensive than this one (or it was the last time I looked - it might have been rewritten by Klingons by now). This is the price we pay for the decision not to make CZ a WP fork, which I agreed with, but to start again from scratch. Adam Carr 11:29, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

well it takes a while to write careful history using the best sources. The WP article seriously distorts the role of Hitler in history and keeps getting worse in that regard. For example, there is far more on his last days in the bunker than there is on his role in starting ww2. Richard Jensen 18:04, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

So you mean, WP portrays Hitler too positively, or it focuses too much on trivial gossip rather than significant historical facts? Yi Zhe Wu 19:13, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

I mean far too much on trivia and miinor details and gossip. To add: Hitler spent most of time in the war years directing the army--nothing of that--and working on secret weapons, nothing on that. Richard Jensen 19:19, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, and by the way all of the bunker story can be seen in the movie Downfall, for which I did a project on. :-) Yi Zhe Wu 19:26, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

One of WP's chronic problems is that it gives far more attention to the trivial and the sensational than to the substantial. That was why I rewrote the Goebbels article, which was mainly about his sex life and his suicide. I have just spent three weeks in Germany, where I visted Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald and Dachau, and took hundreds of photos of Third Reich-related sites. I will be turning all this into articles when I get home. Adam Carr 09:39, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Good--we all look forward to that, Richard Jensen 14:58, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

becoming dictator

Hitler was careful to maintain the appearance of legality--and, in substantial ways, legality itself--in the way he evolved from Chancellor to Fuhrer, so the article should develop that. The Enabling Law, Hitler's persistent shows of veneration for Hindenburg, etc. In any case, I changed the "threw out the laws" phrase to another generality suggesting the NSDAP's political machinations. Nathaniel Dektor 12:49, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

Introductory paragraphs

I would ask that we take more note of the conventions regarding reversion without a full explanation. As it now again stands, the beginning of this article makes no mention of anything significant; it could be describing anyone, not the architect of WW2 and the Holocaust. I agree that on reflection my changes (see below) made too much too soon of all kinds of things, but even Wikipedia mentions the Nazis in the opening section. Perhaps a partial merger of the existing version with some of my edits would improve it.

Adolf Hitler's name remains associated with World War II, its origins and aftermath because, as leader of the Third Reich in Germany, this politician born in Austria on April 20, 1889, led Germany into a war that led to the deaths of millions, not least the attempted genocide of the Jewish people. He ruled as Chancellor of Germany from January 1933, and Führer ('supreme leader') from August 1934, until his suicide on April 30, 1945 amongst the ruins of Berlin.

Hitler was a dominant world figure from 1933 to 1945, a time which saw Germany first rebuild itself along military lines following its World War I defeat, then move towards the aggressive takeover of much of Europe; by 1939, the United Kingdom was the only significant power opposing Hitler's Nazi regime. Six years of war saw the murder of six million Jews - a race the Nazis considered sub-human - until the Allied forces comprising the UK, USA, the Soviet Union and France defeated the Third Reich in 1945. Hitler's legacy of world warfare and systematic murder has seen his image become a symbol of evil in the modern world.

John Stephenson 08:00, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

I tried to fix that weak opening sentence. The lede has to be about what Hitler did, not what his enemies did. Richard Jensen 09:03, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

As someone who is just reading the article from time to time and doing a little copyediting of minor things, I think that the opening paragraph should be as it is right now. Calling him an Austrian politician and very little else in the first paragraph strikes me as a *very* weak beginning. Hayford Peirce 15:44, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

where is his real name?

I miss his real name Schicklgrübl and some of his history as austrian failed painter. Robert Tito |  Talk  23:54, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

his real name was Hitler and the failed-painter part will come (eventually). Richard Jensen 02:09, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

evil

CZ is not judging hitler as good or evil. It is making the correct and important statement that he has become a symbol of evil in the world...as attested by many daily references in media, speeches etc Richard Jensen 00:41, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Excellent point, but I think the lede still doesn't flow very nicely. I particularly hate the repetition of 1945 here as ugly and tortured:"Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), founder of National Socialism and dictator of Germany (1933-45) was a dominant world figure from 1933 to 1945."

I'm a German - so just ignore me if you think its beautiful phraseology.

Otherwise, the article is shaping up nicelyWahib Frank 12:31, 14 August 2007 (CDT)