Talk:Anschluß

Old intro

The previous introduction did not contain the basic information needed for this page. For the time being I moved the old intro to the bottom of the page. It needs to be rewritten and integrated into the main body of the page. --Peter Schmitt 01:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The article certainly would benefit from expansion.

Peter, I'm sorry, but in this phrase "a new government was formed by Seyß-Inquart." 'Seyß' cannot be read by an English speaker, and consequently it is extremely distracting and off-putting to an English language reader. It needs to be rendered Arthur Seyss-Inquart (in German: Seyß-Inquart) or something similar; you handle this very well in the opening (Anschluss and Austria).

Aleta Curry 02:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree from expansion, given that I started it specifically to support Nazi activities of the 1930s, not to be a complete history of the Austrian perspective. As an Austrian, Peter obviously has perspective that I don't. I encourage cooperative on the lede, although I would point out that while it was certainly an idea in Pan-German nationalism, English speakers probably know it best in terms of the completed acquisition of Austria by Germany.

Separately, I have started an article on Pan-German nationalism, which complements this since it will include 19th century influences. Again, I welcome collaboration.

Aleta's point on the German orthography is well taken. With my remaining fragments of high school German, which, whatever nasty people say, was not taken while Bismarck was becoming a political leader, :-), I can read it, but I can't directly type it since it is not part of the ISO/IEC 646 character set and not available on common keyboards. Die Hexe, or Frau Bender, my German teacher, never suggested it is pronounced differently than "ss". Is this true? If so, there is even less argument than diacritic vs. dipthong. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Reorganization

Howard, I do not agree with your reorganization. The introduction is meant to give the basic information (as I tried to give it). Splitting this up into one-sentence paragraphs destroys this purpose. The body of the page may expand the basic information with details. On the other hand, in this form, remarks on Hitler's views and motivations do not fit into the introduction. --Peter Schmitt 10:14, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

It certainly was not my intention to leave those as one-sentence paragraphs, and I continue to add material. You are correct about the Hitler material in the introduction, but neither does it fit to put the failed 1918 attempt, as more than a summary, there. The 1938 actually happened, and I've tried to balance this.

No one-paragraph sections remain, and most will be expanded and sourced. Your introduction could suggest to a reader unfamiliar with the situation that the major event was 1918. Howard C. Berkowitz 11:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The lede states that "Nazi Germany incorporated Austria, by force, as the Ostmark". I think it's important to acknowledge at the ouset that this appears to have had the overswhelming support of the Austrian people [1]; "by force" has the implication of military engagement, but I'm not aware that there was any active conflict. It was a bloodless coup d'etat by the Austrian Nazis, backed by Germany, followed by a plebiscite (probably rigged to exaggerate the undoubted strong support) , or wasn't it? It had the support of Austrian politicians and clergy Gareth Leng 10:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right, there were no fights, and in my first version I did not use "forced", and only mentioned the troops entering Austria, but left it in now because it seemed to be important to Howard.

It is not wrong because the political pressure was backed by military power, but -- as you say -- it may be misinterpreted.

As to how strong the support by Austrian people was: That is difficult to decide and an issue debated by historians. There certainly was no open resistence, but the general view is, I think, that the March referendum would probably have rejected the anschluss (or there would not have been a reason to cancel it). --Peter Schmitt 11:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

It was Clemenceau, I believe, that said a language is a dialect with an army. There was far less threat of force in Austria than in Czechoslovakia, but neither was it absent. I would hesitate to call it a coup d'etat, since that is usually defined as a takeover by elements of the existing government. In this case, it was more a collapse of the existing government and a takeover by, at best, an opposition party with strong external backing. Still, I agree that many Austrians supported it--although probably not German-speaking Austrian Jews. I'm off in a few minutes for some cardiac scans, but I'll bring some monographs along and review the literature. More later. Howard C. Berkowitz 11:29, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Pleased with discussion

I shall first mention that it is a real stress test to be forbidden coffee for 24 hours, get sedated, be driven to the office, and then be told "oh no, we don't have you on the schedule for today."

So, coffee is indeed a first priority before I go into much detail. I certainly will defer to others on the correct translation, as my residual German is...well, "Ein Bier, bitte." Perhaps we might get opinions from the other native or near-native speakers.

Anyway, I will provide more details on the specific Nazi actions, and I think I have some source data on Austrian opinion. More coffee. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Reunion

Austria was part of Germany till 1867. There would have been quite a lot of older people alive in 1938 who still remembered that. Peter Jackson 11:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Germany was not a country in 1867 and Austria not part of it: Austria (Österreich-Ungarn) was independent of Germany (Preußen).

But even if it were: "anschluss" does not mean reunion (not even union) or rejoining. ("Wiedervereinigung" is reunion.)

--Peter Schmitt 12:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Depends what you mean by "country". Austria was part of the German Confederation, and before that of the Holy Roman Empire. Peter Jackson 12:05, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, if you say "confederation". "Germany" is something else. From the (Nazi) German perspective it was a reunion, and this is mentioned later. --Peter Schmitt 12:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, won't you allow "Switzerland" to refer to Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft? Similarly Germany.

Furthermore, even in terms of "country" in the sense of a politically unified entity, Austria was part of one from the Treaty of Verdun in 843 till it ceased to operate effectively as a unified entity in 1254. Peter Jackson 18:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

In fact, there wasn't even a state called Germany in 1938. It was Deutsches Reich. Peter Jackson 11:42, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Peter, you address what is a nontrivial problem, which the EC might address -- assuming it is recognized to be something that can't be solved with 48 hours of discussion. Both the language and history of names ideally should have guidelines moving forward. Germany is a good case in point -- there is a long list of names that applied over time, over different geography. Who was it that said the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor empire? Howard C. Berkowitz 15:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Voltaire, though I don't know whether he was the first. Peter Jackson 16:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)
I do not deny that there are also arguments for using "re"union (though I consider neither the case of Switzerland nor middle-age Germany as valid ones), but I don't think we have to make a decision here. Here the issue is only a (good and true) translation of the German word anschluss. --Peter Schmitt 11:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Summary vs. details

We may not expect that readers know much about the Anschluss. There we have to present a summary of what happened. Scattered details and quotes, though interesting to those knowing the basics and wanting to learn more, are likely to distract and irritate the "average" reader. Thus, I think, the page has to provide basic information first (or only) while information "in depth" has to be supplied later, or on specialized pages.

I have tried to do this for 1938, leaving the rest of the page unchanged. I'll remove duplicated information later.

--Peter Schmitt 11:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

As I have said above, I think that the main narrative should have a consistent and uniform style. I move some details from the main page. The principal facts are still contained there.

Details removed from the main page

First proclamation

The Anschluss of Deutschösterreich to the German republic was first proclaimed by the (provisional) Austrian national assembly (12 November 1918). This was led by Victor Adler, who was Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs under the interim government of Karl Renner. He died on 11 November, the day the war ended, and a day before the proclamation. Adler had been one of the coauthors of the Linz Program (1882), which called for the Germanization of Austria.

There was an attempt, in the early 1930s, to create a customs union between German and Austria, to create larger markets. Nevertheless, external powers, seeing this as an attempt to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles, prevented it.

The process accelerated with the Austro-German Agreement of July 1936, with a secret annex that gave additional power to the Austrian Nazis. They steadily increased subversion and terrorism throughout 1937, and Austrian police captured documents indicating they planned to stage a revolt in the spring of 1938, which could provide a pretext for German intervention. Austrian Chancellor Kurt von Schuschnigg had, in 1937, tried to get Britain to declare that it would guarantee Austria's independence. Without that, his opposition gradually weakened.

Former German Chancellor Franz von Papen had been a special representative to von Schuschnigg. Von Papen revealed that one of the captured documents had called for his own killing by German agents, again as a pretext for intervention. Ironically, von Papen had escaped death in the Night of the Long Knives purge in 1934. Hans Lammers informed him, on 4 February, that he was fired, along with Constantin von Neurath and others who did not give total support to Hitler, such as War Minister Werner von Blomberg and Army Chief of Staff Werner von Fritsch. Von Papen began keeping, in Switzerland, secret copies of his correspondence with Hitler. The most powerful German diplomat in Austria was not von Papen, but Wilhelm Keppler. He would become the first Reich Commissioner for Austria, shifting to Slovakia in 1939.

Von Papen, however, asked Schuschnigg, in early February, to meet Hitler.

12 February 1938 meeting

Schuschnigg visited Hitler in Berchtesgaden (12 February). Brushing aside polite comments about the view, Hitler lectured him, saying the history of Austria was "a continuous betrayal of the people...And let me tell you, Herr Schuschnigg: I am firmly determined to put an end to all of it...I have a historic mission and I am going to fulfill it because Providence has appointed me to do so...I have traveled the hardest road that ever a German had to travel, and I have accomplished the greatest things that ever a German was destined to accomplish...You certainly aren't going to believe you can delay me by as much as half an hour?" Hitler demanded that Austrian National Socialists have freedom to agitate, he had to grant an amnesty for national socialists, to appoint Arthur Seyß-Inquart as Innen-Minister (Minister for interior affairs), and that Austria's foreign and economic policy should conform to that of Germany.

He ostentatiously called for Schuschnigg to leave the room, and called Wilhelm Keitel, head of the Armed Forces High Command, into the room. After Schuschnigg left, Hitler told Keitel he had no orders for him. Not long afterwards, Schuschnigg signed an agreement, and rode back to Salzburg with von Papen.