User talk:Arne Eickenberg
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Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun! Also, if you have experience contributing to Wikipedia, our Introduction to Citizendium for Wikipedians is highly recommended. — Stephen Ewen 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
A few words about workgroups
We are indeed happy to have you in the community. We would also like to introduce you to Citizendium's Workgroups and encourage you to--
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Stephen Ewen 20:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Recently uploaded image(s)
Hi. Thanks for contributing to CZ! I hate to have to tell you this but one or more images you recently uploaded are lacking clear copyright data. Please carefully review the image(s) you uploaded while referencing Images Help—Copyrights. Please fix the problem rapidly, as the image(s) will otherwise have to be deleted. In this case, it looks like you just need to place in the source from which you obtained the image. Thanks! — Stephen Ewen 20:15, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
- Hi Stephen, thanks for the hint. I already wrote you an e-mail. If the image is deleted before any license issues are cleared, then so be it. I would just have to upload it again then. (^_~). Best wishes & season's greetings. —Arne Eickenberg 08:52, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
- Harlan J. Berk agreed to the use of any of their images as long as they are given credit. —Arne Eickenberg 11:05, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
Hi. We appreciate very much your contributions to the Citizendium. I was hoping you could help clear up a matter about the images you recently uploaded. They are lacking clear copyright and source data and need to have it as soon as practicable to avoid deletion. To fix the problem, please review the images you uploaded (click on "my contributions" at the upper-right to re-trace your steps or see the links I added) in light of Images Help—Copyrights. If you need additional help, just ask a constable or leave a message on my talk page and I'll be more than glad to assist. —
- You need to carefully follow the directions to document permissions. Stephen Ewen 21:13, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
Thanks hugely for Ancient Celtic music
I never knew that that much was known about ancient Celtic music. What I would like to know, personally, as an aficionado of Irish traditional music, is whether experts have any information whatsoever about whether the traditional musics of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Brittany--called collectively "Celtic," and which have some family resemblances--are anything like a continuation of the music you describe in that article?
Also, here's a stupid question--were there any ancient music notation systems? Any old tunebooks available? I'd like to see articles about that. Obviously, if there were any ancient Celtic tunes notated, we'd be able to have opinions about musical influences or continuity. --Larry Sanger 13:48, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
- Hi Larry, I don't know of any expert research on the musical transmission in the "Celtic" region from antiquity through the Mediaeval Ages. I personally don't think it's probable that today's (or the Mediaeval) "Celtic folklore" is based on the Celtic music of antiquity. Today we have folklore, but back then it was a very sophisticated and integral civilization probably including highly developed music styles and practices, in the political, military, religious realm and other fields, at least before the times of the Roman empire. There is definitely a continuous musical tradition through the ages, but only on the highest level, and it is restricted to the "victors". Christian liturgical music for instance, especially the Gregorian music, is mainly based on ancient Roman monophonic sacral chants, also e.g. the dual choir (Latin/Greek) in the Good-Friday liturgy being a continuation of Roman funerary practices which can be traced back to Caesar's funeral service. So integral musical transmission (especially in the Dark Ages) would be restricted to the tightened (theo)political structures, i.e. Christianity as a continuation of the vanished Roman empire. This imperial power (whether Roman at first or Christian later) would have assimilated, superposed and altered any pre-existing musical culture, especially one of such a highly civilized culture as the Celtic chiefdoms. (The same happened to the Etruscans, by the way.) We know the saying: "There can be only one." But this would only apply for the "high society", where music—in combination with the sacral/liturgical sphere—was part of the complex of political rulership: "Christus vincit/imperat/regnat" etc.. In rural cultures it was probably different. I guess there could have been some remnants of ancient Celtic music passed down in tradition (despite Roman cultural rule), similar to the dirges (neniae) of the ancient Roman praeficae, which have been partially preserved as the Italian lament tradition, especially in Sardinia. There was surely a lot of intercultural exchange and foreign influx, which would account for the "family resemblances" that you mention, but it's a different social structure than what was known as the Celtic culture in antiquity. The key characteristic of the Mediaeval Ages on the common (i.e. peasant) level is what's called by some the wild dispersion of universalia. When Rome vanished, Europe was left in "cultural ruins" without any defining and structuring force. (The latter was restricted to the Church; see above.) On the lower levels of society (i.e. the great majority of the people) we are dealing with an extremely heterogenous rankgrowth of legends, cultural fragments from antiquity etc. pp., new legends (like King Arthur and the Nibelungs) surfacing as rehashes of vanished ancient times. The "grunt musical culture" in this environment would have been very particulate, regionally anchored and highly fragmented. Only later would the foreign influx have begun to slowly harmonize the Northern-European musical culture. It's very significant that the musical genre that we today call "Celtic music" only began around the 17th century.
- Your question on the ancient notation system is anything but stupid. :-) We know from ancient sources that there was a Greek notation system, which probably also the Romans used. (However, only Greek "music scores" have survived.) Since the Celts seem to have been a highly civilized culture, they will definitely have written down their music in some way or another. (I'd bet on that!) But sadly, none of the ancient Celtic music has survived in this way. Not even the Roman music has been passed down to us; we know it only as a Christian mutation (Gregorian, Byzantine etc.; see above). So the only information we can gather is from the sources and depictions, e.g. the construction of the instruments, the sound of the carnyx, the fact that the early Germanic tribes knew how to rhyme (long before the Irish tribes) etc. pp.. Reconstructional work in this respect is to be taken with a grain of salt. It is often suitable to re-enact the sound and some playing techniques, but anything concerning melody and harmony is pure speculation. (It's feasible however that Gallic/Celtic music was in some way "romanized"… or at least hellenized, because the Greeks came to Gaul long before the Romans did.) With rhythm it's a different thing: From ancient poems one can extract the metrics and therefore the "beat" of the music that might have been associated with the lyrics.
- Best wishes. —Arne Eickenberg 19:26, 13 April 2007 (CDT)