CZ Talk:Charter/Archive 2

This page is dedicated to drafting a charter for Citizendium and should only be edited by those eight Citizens elected to the drafting Committee. The talk page is also reserved for them to discuss the evolution of the document. Other Citizens, please comment on the dedicated thread at the Citizen Forum. Non-Citizens can comment in a separate thread at the non-Member Forum.

This is the final version of the document drafted by the Charter drafting Committee. It shall be subject to a public vote.

To do list

1. Identify our goals for the charter and for Citizendium. Ongoing: see the forum thread
2. Get the draft ready for the open discussion phase.

Done

1. Agree on Committee chairperson: Joe Quick
2. Agree on the basic Structure.

Auxiliary pages

The following subpages of this page have been set up to help the drafting process. The same editing restrictions as to this page apply there.

Brainstorm	Drafting procedures	Scope and structure of the charter	Things to address but not in charter	Definitions	Ecology-Economy	Archives	Editors, authors, and approval	Another subpage

Comments on Charter draft text

Real names section

second sentence is too detailed for charter. third sentence needs to be slightly revised to be more general.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

What about this? --Daniel Mietchen 22:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I slightly changed your amendment.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not enamored with the exceptions. Russell D. Jones 14:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Nor am I. Probably, we need to specify why exceptions can be made, and who/what will decide. I am not sure that the official accounts need to appear in the Charter, though. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I removed the exceptions. --Daniel Mietchen 21:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, but as far as I know there have been a few legitimate exceptions. They need to be allowed for, by some procedure (e.g. special application to the Chief Constable). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

That's why we have the interim guidance section on pseudonyms. See also here. --Daniel Mietchen 01:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved: no need for pseudonyms, at least from CZ experiences. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ratification of this charter

To me, this is not a subheading under "Electorate", but at the same level. --Daniel Mietchen 22:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Judicial process

I made some changes here, trying to be more absolute.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Professionalism

Some major changes here in the last sentence. I tried to make it simultanously universal yet with some flexibility. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Workgroups

The only statement about workgroups is that the Editorial Council shall have power to establish a workgroup policy. When workgroup policy needs to change, you're going to have to amend the charter which (rightly) should be a lot harder than changing an ed council policy. Russell D. Jones 14:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, for the pragmatic reason that the workgroup system is floundering and it would take at least three months to get a new EC started on the problem. This is an example of what I consider "interim guidance", which is designated as changeable by the appropriate body, not requiring a Charter amendment, but usable in the meantime. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Author

An author is any account. This current definition posits a whole class of people who have accounts but are denied the rights and privileges of authors. Russell D. Jones 15:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this seems to be the case. Presumably the idea is to cast inactive authors as non-authors, but this is not a good idea. Is there a need to define an author as someone who has written something on CZ, leaving as Citizens those who have not? Normally, a Citizen in any state system has full legal rights. Therefore, it would make more sense to say that only those who write or edit are citizens, but this also is not a good idea... I suggest deleting this. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I removed the distinction between Author and Citizen. --Daniel Mietchen 21:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Mission statement

If the current version is to be replaced by some variant of what is being discussed on the forum, we should not forget to introduce the term Citizen on its first mention. --Daniel Mietchen 16:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Just rephrased the mission statement and added the definitino of Citizens to its first mention, in the Professionalism section. --Daniel Mietchen 22:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Being Bold

I agree with the statement "A basic Professionalism rule, however, is that large deletions or revisions, or renaming pages other than for clear errors, should not be made without a reasonable attempt to get consensus on the Talk Page." but do not think it should go into (this section of) the charter. --Daniel Mietchen 16:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It might be an example of "interim guidance". Where should it go? Howard C. Berkowitz 17:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I put it into Collaboration now. --Daniel Mietchen 21:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I made some revisions to the last version of Being Bold, trying to make it a little more certain for authors. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I haven't looked over the current version of the whole document (except to skim it), so don't take this as my last or only word on the document. It's just a quick in-and-out comment. But I did notice this as a gloss on "be bold": "Should Citizens be unsure that their planned contributions are in conformity with the Charter and its subordinate policies, they are advised to seek comments from Editors and the wider community. In the absence of disputes, they may reasonably proceed." How on Earth does that encapsulate "be bold"? Someone who follows that rule is being the opposite of bold. It seems to me that whoever wrote that does not actually agree with the meaning of "be bold," and if you don't agree with it, you should be advocating getting rid of it as a policy instead of trying to rewrite it in a way that basically jettisons it as a policy. The notion--which I came up with for Wikipedia--is that people unfamiliar with the system should not concern themselves too much about breaking often complex or arcane-seeming rules, or doing "wrong" things generally, but just proceed indeed boldly on the assumption that as long as they are acting in good faith, they are probably "within the law." The reason for the policy in the first place was that some people were very worried about doing something wrong and so wouldn't do anything. That has been, I think, even more a problem on CZ than it was in the early days of Wikipedia. The function of saying "be bold" is simply to embolden people who are reticent and strongly desirous not to give offense, and who think they have to master all the rules before they do anything. Asking them to get advice (from editors first and foremost, no less!) before they proceed is precisely to ask them not to be bold, but instead to subordinate themselves to the know-it-all regulars. --Larry Sanger 16:27, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Objectivity

I oppose the existence of this section and also the use of the word. I recommend the idea of inclusiveness as an alternative to neutrality, which also has been problematic.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Since we are supposed to agree on the draft presented for the discussion period, I have removed the section and paste it in here:

===Objectivity===

Information presented objectively is based on careful, unbiased and documented observation. When conflicting information exists, enough background must be given that the reader can understand the merits and weaknesses of the major alternatives. The Citizendium is not a place for advocacy, nor for advertisement.

--Daniel Mietchen 23:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Let's try to draft an alternative here. The starting point must be the title. Suggestions? I'll offer "Non-partisan, inclusive knowledge" Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Martin, what do you mean by "inclusive knowledge?" D. Matt Innis 01:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I mean that it takes an holistic view, encompassing different perspectives, paradigms,premisses etc. Much as the Neutrality Policy also requires (but trying to avoid the word neutrality). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

So are we saying that articles should "include" all perspectives, but not require them to be presented "neutrally". Is that the reason to avoid use of the word "Neutrality"? What kind of consequences do you expect that to have? D. Matt Innis 02:24, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No. But neutral has the same problems as objective, namely that they don't exist. Non-partisan is my version of neutral. We might also include other descriptors, such as "balanced", "fair representation of competing views", etc., Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe, rather intensely, that the Charter has to make clear that "balanced" or whatever word is selected does not mean all views are required to be present, or, if present, to be given equal emphasis. The point about CZ not being a place of advocacy, I hope, is not objectionable; advocacy is inherently partisan. One can always rely on the Nazis for a worst-case example; I don't believe there is a requirement to give equal space to the facts of adjudicated crimes against humanity, and the justification for them. Someday, I hope to take Mein Kampf out of cold storage for a reasonable analysis, but do not expect it to be "sympathetic" to Adolf. Accurate, yes. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we need something to guide how competing views should be presented. Maybe, "providing clear guidance on the extent of scientific and popular support". Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think on average, we are all inclusionists when it comes to our author instincts, but as editors we tend to be restrictionist. Some of this is necessary, but at times crosses the line into advocacy by deletion of opposing views. This is complicated... too complicated for us eight to take the responsibility for. The concepts need to be effectively debated and settled, but not in this venue. Here we are just supposed to be creating the Charter that will guide future discussions. We should just state that Citizendium will abide by such and such policy and then determine that such and such policy can be changed by 2/3 vote of some quorum. D. Matt Innis 03:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hmm. Reminds me of the definition of pornography.. I'll recognize it when I see it.. What I think is important is that we don't allow biased, emotionally driven but effectively hidden, descriptions of competing views. The dictionary definition of "objective" does seem to satisfy this for me -- as does neutral, but what is it that these don't satisfy for you? In other words, why should we try to leave out Neutral for something just as vague? I'm willing to consider anything that would seem like an improvement, but I haven't really heard it, yet. D. Matt Innis 03:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, neutral implies that you don't make any judgements at all. This is far from being non-partisan, in that I might not support a Socialist position versus a Conservative position, but presumably I want at least to hint that a Neo-Nazi position is not something that CZ endorses, even if it does mention its existence. I also want to indicate that support for Neo-Nazi ideas is generally very small, with occasional local exceptions. Neutrality Policy does not permit this, at least in its formulation. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Matt, I disagree. I don't think Citizendium has time to keep putting this off to future forums, which can't realistically be in operation for another three months. I think it's entirely reasonable to have what I've called "interim guidance", which is the best consensus of the Charter drafters, but can be changed by the Editorial Council rather than requiring full Charter amendment. This particular issue is one that, in my opinion, is likeliest to lead to the death of Citizendium unless a stand is taken.

Which issue is going to lead to the death of Citizendium? D. Matt Innis 03:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality policy that overrides expertise, and requires presentation of fringe views. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Experts are the originators of "fringe" views. Neutrality just requires that we express each "expert" view as accurately as we can. D. Matt Innis 03:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

In a word, nonsense, as in the Nazi justifications. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Martin, yes, I think guidance on competing views is important. Now, I can speak with a certain degree of expertise on different views within the original NDSAP, much less neo-Nazis. For example, in discussing the Holocaust, it is appropriate to explain the economic exploitation view of the WVHA versus the "security" killing mentality of the RSHA. I don't need, however, to describe either sympathetically or suggest that CZ considers them reasonable views. The closest to "sympathy", required under existing Fundamental Principle Neutrality Policy I can get is observing the regret, in the death sentence of Otto Ohlendorf, that the judges had -- that he had not made different decisions with his agreed great abilities. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the distinction is that CZ shouldn't consider anything a "reasonable" view. It just states what the view was. The reader decides if it is a reasonable view. D. Matt Innis 03:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Maybe the important thing that is missing is that one editor shouldn't be deciding anything on his/her own. D. Matt Innis 04:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Why not? An author says that chiropractic manipulation causes gonorrhea. Do you need three editors to reject that statement? Sorry, I will not agree to the idea that an editor, if qualified, can't make decisions. That utterly destroys the idea of respect for expertise, and I won't stay under such a rule.Howard C. Berkowitz 04:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, expertise, as decided in editor qualification, should assume that some views predominate. I shall not, for example, agree that the WHVA or RSHA views, the proponents of both being hung by the neck until dead by order of the Nuremberg Military Tribunals or International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg), were reasonable. Both held a position that there was "life unworthy of life" (a doctrinal statement), but one believed in getting as much economic value as possible out of those useless lives before they died.

If only for myself, I'd like a firm position taken on these fundamental principles. If experts aren't to give expert judgments, I'd like to know, if only for myself, so I can leave without prolonging the agony. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict - I'll read your response after I put this back in) Well, as long as the chiropractor uses protection, everyone should be okay -- though they don't use antibiotics! :)

But what about the homeopath that takes out the statement that Howard puts in that says that remedies are 100% water. In this case there were other editors there to revert those actions. Of course, any appeal process would probably include more than one editor anyway, too.

Where are you going?

D. Matt Innis 04:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Leave Citizendium, and other online resource that has a Seinfeld sort of view that there are no positions worthy of being considered substantially correct. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I consider it crucial that the content gives particular weight to existing expert opinions, without the requirement to represent all views on a topic. --Daniel Mietchen 07:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't actually have a problem with stating a wide range of views, since an encyclopedia should do that. Nor do I have a problem with trying to state each of those views accurately, since academics are supposed to do that (and often fail). My problems are with the concepts of "objectivity" and "neutrality". The first because it simply does not exist; the second because it implies that we give equal and uncritical presentation of all opinions, even cranky nonsenses supported by 0.0001% of the population. This latter is not encyclopedic and impedes the presentation of serious scientific articles, if taken at face value.

There is a lot of opposition to the existence and wording of Neutrality Policy on CZ. Read the Forums. Note the previous editorial arguments and departures. Therefore, the Charter has to address this issue in principle. Again, I suggest the concept of "inclusiveness" while making clear to the reader which are the accepted mainstream positions. This is normal encyclopedia writing, and almost everyone on CZ wants that to prevail, as far as I know. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that "careful, unbiased and documented observation" (as stated in that deleted paragraph) is indeed possible and happens on a daily basis in many labs around the globe, but I agree that this is not necessarily what people (inside or outside CZ) would associate with the term "objectivity". So, in a sense, I understand that you are looking for a new title (what about "No prejudices"?), but I do not understand why the rest of that section would not fit. --Daniel Mietchen 12:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

My view, Daniel, is that the wording you selected previously is generally (but not always) appropriate for natural science. Observations in the social world are frequently biased and/or wrong; observations in history require interpretations. So, for a universal understanding of the underlying philosophy of CZ we need some explanation of how to deal with theories, concepts, ideologies, marginal viewpoints, religious beliefs, etc. This is extremely difficult. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I like Joe's suggestion (per email) that we might take objectivity as a goal and, while being conscious of it not being universally attainable, strive to approach it asymptotically to the best of our means. --Daniel Mietchen 14:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't notice the discussion here; sorry for my out-of-context, out-of-the-loop email. In short, I don't think we're going to be able to come up with a word or a policy that actually defines exactly what Citizendium will become. Thus, it is worth aiming for an ideal, even if we must acknowledge that it is merely an ideal. I think Objectivity is a worthy ideal. It should be complemented by a few others: accuracy; fair, unbiased representation; and inclusiveness. --Joe Quick 15:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

How about "holistic coverage"? I agree that objectivity is a sort of ideal but I fear it will be heavily criticised as a word or concept. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:23, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, holistic is good. I've suggested that word time and time again and have been repeatedly ignored or criticized for it. I doubt it is much better than objectivity in that way, but it is another important aspect. --Joe Quick 15:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

How's this for a formulation that encompasses the ideal and the practical: "All entries at Citizendium should engage their subjects holistically and objectively to the greatest degree possible. In practice, this means that articles should present the big picture, including all relevant perspectives, and should be written carefully and without bias." --Joe Quick 15:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Matt makes an interesting point in the Forum: that "neutrality" is one of several known attributes of CZ, so we should retain the word but carefully define it. I suspect that I personally will be happy with no single word, so provided that it is properly defined and unambiguous, I would not oppose retaining the actual word "neutrality" simply for continuity. This would mean that the definition needs to be absolutely spot-on. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC) And yes, your definition is not bad at all, Joe. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The second entry at reference.com seems about right. It gives neutral as: "not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy." I think the second definition of objective as an adjective is closer to what we really want: "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased." Actually, they're just different enough that we might consider using both, so long as they are clearly defined. I also forgot above to include, "Citizendium is not a place for advocacy, nor for advertisement," which I think is really good. --Joe Quick 16:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

So here's my next take: "All entries at Citizendium should engage their subjects holistically, neutrally and objectively to the greatest degree possible. The holistic approach to article writing entails representing each topic as a complex whole rather than a simple conglomeration of its parts; a good Citizendium article will explain all facets of its subject, including all significant points of view, applications, and connections to other topics. It will also be neutral, which means it will not align with any one position if there is controversy surrounding some aspect of the article's topic. Instead, it will remain objective, describing each relevant position without skewing the narrative toward the personal beliefs or positions of the author(s). In short, articles should present the big picture, including all relevant perspectives, and should be written carefully and without bias. Citizendium is not a place for advocacy or for advertisement." --Joe Quick 16:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Amending the Charter

Did I miss some discussion on how to do this? The current formulation looks highly problematic and over-prescriptive for the future, to me. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There probably was no real discussion, just the need to have the section and to phrase it out. Please make it better. --Daniel Mietchen 01:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll try another formulation, and see how people feel. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not clear on this..

The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter. D. Matt Innis 02:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

It's a bit vague, although the Charter should not be too detailed either. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with "purposely vague", but don't have any idea what it means. I can see "conflict of interest with respect to this charter"? Am I missing something that someone wants to make sure we don't do? D. Matt Innis 02:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: I don't know what the drafter had in mind here. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll wait to see if anyone meant something specific by it. D. Matt Innis 02:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I meant that the partnership would have to ensure that Citizens are not required to do anything in conflict with the principles laid out in the charter. This is to avoid partnerships leading us into problems with advocacy, advertisement, or similar. --Daniel Mietchen 07:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Collaboration

I think we should delete the second sentence under the collaboration section as too detailed for a charter:

Current:

• The Citizendium is a collaborative project, open to constructive contributions by any Citizen on any of its content. However, large deletions or revisions, or renaming pages other than for clear errors, should not be made without a reasonable attempt to get other opinions. The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter.

Suggested as an improvement with expectation of further input:

• The Citizendium is a collaborative project, open to constructive contributions by any Citizen to any of its content. There will be no anonymous editing of publicly viewed content. All unapproved articles are open for editing by any Citizen at any time and immediately becomes property of the Citizendium. The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external non-Citizen partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter.

D. Matt Innis 02:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I added the above changes, but have some minor concerned about the last sentence still. D. Matt Innis 13:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have made some modifications and took out two sentences (pasted here) which I think do not fit into this section:

"There will be no anonymous editing of publicly displayed content. All unapproved articles are open for editing by any Citizen and immediately becomes property of the Citizendium."

The first sentence is already covered by the Real Names sentence, while the second is grammatically incorrected and mingles collaborative aspects (already covered in the initial sentence of that section, which I left in) with license aspects, covered in their own section. --Daniel Mietchen 13:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit comments

Please do not make any edit comments of substance or opinion, which are then lost to the record unless one goes to logs. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean on the Charter page? Because we have all been doing that with our edits on the Charter page... Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think going through the history is actually instructive with these comments, much less so without them. --Daniel Mietchen 16:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Cross references

I added two cross references within the Charter -- to "Author" and "Dispute resolution". Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Professionalism

Let's drop the word "polite" from the section. D. Matt Innis 13:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Why? Martin Baldwin-Edwards 14:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

locking policy pages

We should state that policy pages and the policies themselves are locked once they have been confirmed by the responsible bodies, right? Perhaps as part of the interim suggestions, we should make it clear that the governing bodies need to evaluate existing policies, modify those that need adjustments, and the lock them. --Joe Quick 15:24, 12 November 2009 (UTC)