Talk:John E. Mack

Metadata should not be in main articles

I'm not sure why you are putting it there, but, Mary, the last couple of articles you've created start with metadata that belongs on the Template: Article/Metadata page, not the main article. The main article should only contain {{subpages}}. Is the metadata, perhaps, in a word processor file you are using? Howard C. Berkowitz 21:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm doing my best to figure out the "simple" system. Feel free to correct my mistakes as I am learning and you are the editor. I'm just the author. Thanks!Mary Ash 21:20, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources

If one uses sources, avoid narrative descriptions such as "according to the New York Times" or in a PBS Interview. Use an actual citation. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Go forth edit Howard as you know how to do this. I do not. Mary Ash 23:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I dunno about this, Howard, as a hard and fast rule. I'll bet if you look through all the stuff I've written you'll find a hundred "according to the New York Times critic so-and-so" and such like, THEN followed by the actual citation. You've gotta introduce the citation *somehow* -- so what's wrong with *that*? Hayford Peirce 01:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Right. I'm not objecting to saying "from the New York Times", but objecting to saying "from the New York Times" without a citation. Howard C. Berkowitz 01:47, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Gotcha. Then I certainly agree 100%. Hayford Peirce 01:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

As I suggested to Howard add the citations. I'm bringing home the bacon as an author so you guys can edit. Mary Ash 02:04, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

No, Mary. It's not my job to find the specific citations. When I assert something, I take responsibility to provide the citation. I bring in pounds of bacon, and never fail to garnish with appropriate citations.

How could I possibly cite "Note: Some sources state the investigation was conducted for 14 months."

For this article, a Psychology Editor may rule on citations. I'll simply say that for an article where I have Editorial jurisdiction, I will no more accept "go find the citation" than "go Google it." Howard C. Berkowitz 02:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(unident)As I wrote earlier I do not know how to do the Wiki Markup for citations. Please read my comments before making further comments without reading them first. Feel free to add them as editors. If you have questions about a specific citation please contact me on my talk page or leave a message here. Thanks!Mary Ash 02:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have the bibliographic information, it is enough to put it between <ref></ref>, as in <ref>J. Smith, "Harvard investigates UFO author professor", ''Boston Globe'', 31 February 1970</ref>

I have questions about all the citations that do not point to a specific, identifiable article or other source.Howard C. Berkowitz 02:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)I've done my best to add the citations you requested. I hope you are enjoying your laugh fest at my feeble attempts to learn how to do this. May you all enjoy your party at my expense of trying to learn and help. Mary Ash 02:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You still don't seem to understand, Mary, Editors at CZ are NOT like Editors at newspapers. This has been explained to you over and over -- please try to understand the difference.

I DO UNDERSTAND THAT! Shouting intended. What I don't understand is how a wiki that desperately needs authors treats them so poorly. You've treated me like I am supposed to LEARN everything about your wiki INSTANTLY and I am sorry to say that's impossible. I am bright but not bright enough to learn in a second what took you guys awhile to learn. I did try to add the references and I am sure there'll be complaints about how the article should be deleted because it wasn't done right. There is no winning. May you all enjoy your little party of a few as it will remain that way until YOUR wiki learns to ENCOURAGE new authors rather than stomp on them until they desire not to help at all. Yesterday I was in a quandary as to what to do. I love writing and I would love to write here but it's nye impossible due to the hostile environment. So go enjoy your laugh at my expense and feel good about yourselves for running me off. I quit unless a constable (which I notified) takes action to improve my ability to contribute here. May you all do your happy, happy dance. Mary Ash 02:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

All right. I'm going to answer. There are several newer authors than you. Some, quite to my surprise, got the metadata almost completely right on the first try. Others didn't do that, but immediately started off at a non-general level on a range of subjects from Microsoft Windows to mushrooms, which actually may have something in common. No one insisted on not being edited. No one complained they were being pounced upon. No one is insisting that CZ's culture to fit their idea of what it should be.

Ironically, you are assuming roles for Constables that they don't have -- and Hayford, commenting here about the confusion about the role of Editors, is a Constable, although he is acting as a regular Author. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Howard, give Mary a break. Don't you have other articles to work on? On WP they call this wikistalking. D. Matt Innis 03:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I have, indeed, actively and pleasantly collaborated today with several new contributors--see, for example, Windows Neptune, the suggestions, and the creation of CZ: Microsoft Windows to complement it. I do tend to look at any new article. I would welcome constructive criticism of any new articles of my own -- and, had I failed to cite, pointing that out would be constructive.

Are you ruling on Wikistalking? Could you point me to a "give a break" policy when there are very specific and objective problems being mentioned? Go ahead -- ban me, or get a Psychology Editor to ban me from this article. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I am baffled. How can it be adding a citation -- not formatting -- if there's no way for anyone else to find the cited article? "Some sources" may be acceptable for a newspaper, but encyclopedias don't have anonymous sources. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Harvard

Like many Harvard people, I was surprised and dismayed by his presence at that August Institution. Every time his lunatic ideas appeared in the press, they were always qualified by the phrase "professor of something or other at Harvard" to lend credence to them, as if Harvard had given official approval to them. As I recall, a bunch of indignant Harvard faculty tried to get his tenure taken away but failed. Well, Harvard has always had its eccentrics.... Hayford Peirce 00:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Mary, you are just completely incorrect

I just spent another hour trying to turn your in-text urls into proper references. Authors are supposed to make at least what I would call a "due diligence" effort to write proper references ... and it is not the duty of editors to continually cleanup an author's messes. Maybe once, twice and perhaps even three times, editors may clean up ... but at some point, the author must learn how to do it.

An author should not repeatedly say "I am an author. I can't be bothered with learning how to do references, how to create a metadata templates, how to create photo credit lines and how to find the the name of a photo's author. That's an editors's job, so I need not learn how." That is just simply completely incorrect.

If one writes an article for a trade journal or a professional, scholarly journal, the article will most often be rejected if the author doesn't create the references as spelled out on the specific journal's guidelines (and each journal has different such guidelines) ... I know because I have written such articles.

If one writes a book that utilizes references and the author doesn't submit the manuscript with references formatted as dictated by each specific publisher, the manuscrript will most often be rejected until the author complies with the publishers reference guidelines ... I know because I have had a book published John Wiley and Sons.

Once more, it is the duty of an author to make a due diligence effort to learn how to do such things as references, metadata templates, upload photos correctly and with correct credit lines ... in plain English, due diligence means make an "honest effort" to do something right. It does not mean saying "That's an editor's job to clean up after me from now on out". Many dozens of other newcomers to CZ (myself included) have learned how to do those things ... why can you not learn? Or why do you refuse to learn? Milton Beychok 04:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You can NOT expect someone to learn ALL that YOU know in two weeks. I've complied with every request made by CZ editors once I learned what was needed. I DO understand stylebooks and citations. I was required as a PAID journalist to LEARN the AP Stylebook as part of my job. I also kept a copy of my AP Stylebook at my desk for reference. NO ONE including YOU or anyone else has sent me to a link explaining how to insert the references. I HAVE included every reference used in every article written at CZ. They were in the exlinks and I notified the editors and anyone else where to find them. Nor has anyone bothered to show me HOW to insert the Wiki Mark Up the whole time I've tried to learn. As to the photo insertions, and I've done plenty at wikiHow and as a paid journalist, I gave appropriate credit. The source was listed along with a link to where the photo could be found. What I have discovered is some folks at CZ are friendly and helpful. Some are not. Some people's priority to criticize others seems to exceed their priority to have the site succeed.Mary Ash 04:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

If you will read the summaries I attached to my last two edits of this main article's references, I asked you to please read CZ:Formatting of embedded, inline references. I guess that you didn't notice that. In any event, that article will explain everything you need to know ... but it will take about 15 -30 minutes or so to read it carefully.

I have done more than simply point out the corrections needed in your references and in your photos (including the one for this article). I fixed all of them for you and only then did I tell you about them. How else would you want me or others to function? Just fix the errors and not even tell you about them? Is cleaning them up first and then telling you about them (and how to correct them) what you characterize as unfriendly? When you were in university and a professor or instructor told you when you had made an error, was that professor or instructor being unfriendly? Or were they doing their job in educating you?

Mary, one definition of the second law of thermodynamics (the one about entropy) is "There are no free lunches" and that is a fact of life. Milton Beychok 05:37, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The summaries were sent AFTER I completed the article. Not much help after the article is completed. As to thermodynamics, you are right. You have to serve lunch so it isn't free. You never served lunch until after the main course was served. There was nothing to lose except a contributor who was trying to learn.Mary Ash 05:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)