User talk:George Swan/sandbox/United States Army Field Manual on interrogation

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	NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
	No "from wikipedia" disclaimer is necessary because I was the sole author of this version. George Swan 10:21, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
	Check the history of edits to see who inserted this notice.

update

I went back to an old version, so as to avoid the "from wikipedia" tag. The article therefore is about two years out of date... George Swan 10:30, 10 April 2008 (CDT)

Constable's decision to move disputed article to Discussion page for the moment

A Constable has considered an Editor's request to delete the main article. He has decided that the Editor's decription of the reasons for deleting the article is at least partially incorrect: there is absolutely no evidence that the article is a "tirade against the Bush administration". It seems to the Constable that the article is actually very even-handed and neutral. The Constable is incapable of addressing the other issues raised of whether the facts are inaccurate or out-of-date. If either is the case, then they are susceptible to editing by others. The Constable feels that there is no reason for an article such as this NOT to be a CZ article, providing it meets Editorial norms. He is therefore placing it here for future editing until it DOES meet Editorial standards.

The article below may be edited, expanded, and improved by any Citizen; it may NOT be deleted except by a Constable ...said Hayford Peirce (talk)

Text that has been removed from main article to be held here for future editing

(PD) Photo: R.D. Ward
General John Kimmons, on September 6th, 2006, when the most recent revision of the DoD most recent Field Manual for interrogators was released.

The United States Army Field Manual on interrogation instructs military interrogators how to conduct effective interrogations while conforming with U.S. and international law. The Field Manual was sometimes known by the code FM 34-52. The most recent revision was renamed Field Manual FM 2-22.3, Human Intelligence Collector Operations.

== Interrogations during the "global war on terror" == et

During the American war on terror the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld issued "extended interrogation techniques", that went farther than those authorized in the Army field manual. The extended techniques stimulated debate, both within the Bush administration, and outside it. And various revisions of the extended techniques were issued.

Rumsfeld intended the extended techniques to be used only on the captives the United States classified as "illegal combatants". But extended interrogation techniques were adopted in Iraq, even though captives there were entitled to protection under the Geneva Conventions. General Geoffrey Miller, who was then the director of interrogation of detainees held in Guantanamo Bay, and some of his staff were sent to Iraq to help transfer their interrogation experience. Military Intelligence troops who had been using extended techniques in Afghanistan, notably Captain Carolyn Wood.

General Ricardo Sanchez, the CO of American forces in Iraq, after input from Miller and his team, and from Captain Wood, issued his own set of extended techniques.

On April 28, 2005 Rumsfeld announced that the Army would be revising the manual. The revised manual would have spelled out more clearly which interrogation techniques were prohibited.

On July 25, 2005 Senator John McCain tabled an amendment to the a military spending bill, intended to restrict all US government interrogators from using interrogation techniques not authorized in the Army field manual.

On October 20, 2005 Vice President Dick Cheney met with McCain to try to convince him to agree that his amendment should only apply to military interrogators. Cheney wanted to continue to allow civilian interrogators, working for US intelligence agencies, to use more extended interrogation techniques. McCain did not agree.

Plans to revise the manual to allow extended techniques

On April 28, 2005 Rumsfeld announced that the Army would be revising the manual. The revised manual would have spelled out more clearly which interrogation techniques were prohibited.

On December 14, 2005, the New York Times reported that the Army Field Manual had been rewritten by the Pentagon. Previously, the manual's interrogation techniques section could be read freely on the internet. But the new edition's includes 10 classified pages in the interrogation technique section, leaving the public clueless about what the government considers not to be torture.

On June 5 2006 the Los Angeles Times reported that the Pentagon's revisions will remove the proscription against "humiliating and degrading treatment", and other proscriptions from article 3 of the third Geneva Convention. The LA Times reports that the State Department has argued against the revisions because of the effect it will have on the world's opinion of the United States.

Classified addendum

According to the New York Times, unlike previous versions, a draft of the new version of the manual from late 2005 contained a ten page classified addendum. The Jurist reported on a draft with classified sections on May 5, 2006.

September 6 2006 release

The new version was released on September 6, 2006.

• The Jurist reported that the final version of the manual contained no classified sections.
• The Jurist reported that the final version of the manual explicitly reference common article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.
• The Jurist reported that the manual applied to all captives of the US military custody, and to all captives of the CIA, in military custody, but it would not apply to captives of the CIA in CIA custody.

According to The Jurist:

After the US Supreme Court's June ruling in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, however, the Pentagon said that the Geneva Conventions would be applied to all detainees held in US military custody around the world, reversing the Defense Department's policy of classifying detainees as "enemy combatants" outside the protections of Article 3.

See also

• detainees in CIA custody

Online versions

• .html version of FM 34-52, circa May 8, 1987
• .pdf version of FM 34-52, circa September 28, 1992
• .pdf version of Field Manual FM 2-22.3, "Human Intelligence Collector Operations.", circa September 6, 2006 (supercedes Field Manual 34-52.)

External links

• Torture: Proposed New Army Field Manual Is a First Step but Must Apply to Everyone, human rights first, April 28, 2005
• Statement of Senator John McCain Amendment on Army Field Manual, July 25, 2005
• Cheney Plan Exempts CIA From Bill Barring Abuse of Detainees, Washington Post, October 25, 2005

Discussion moved from article page

The entire text of this article has been moved by a Constable to the Discussion page, where it may be freely edited and improved by any Citizen. Hayford Peirce 16:48, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to "improve" an article about something that doesn't exist. Retitle this article and it might be improved. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC) Military Workgroup Editor

Well, that's exactly what I was going to suggest -- why don't you Move it to the correct place? And then, if you feel like doing so, add perhaps a single sentence to the lede along the lines of, "Although the Bush administration, and many media sources, frequently referred to a "USAFM", such a thing does not, nor did not, ever exist under that particular name. The correct title for this is/was/should be so-and-so." Once this has been done, I will be very happy to delete this incorrectly titled article. Hayford Peirce 19:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a great compromise, but, without getting into personalities, when I've suggested that before, there was significant pushback from an author. If this is an acceptable solution, much of the problem goes away. I'm not sure who would "rule" on it, but if I do this sort of cleanup, can we call this an expert ruling that would be enforced, and not have a lot of continuing argument?

In fact, I'd be willing to leave this title, if it essentially became a disambiguation page:

Although the Bush administration, and many media sources, frequently referred to a "USAFM", such a thing does not, nor did not, ever exist under that particular name."

• For general information on intelligence interrogation, see human-source intelligence
• For information on current and past top-level U.S. policy on interrogation, see U.S. policy on intelligence interrogation (this is a LOT broader than war on terror).
• For a bibliography of U.S. guidance and policy, active and past, on interrogation catalog/bibliography subpage?'

(rolling eyes) we could almost use a template about "Although the Bush administration, and many media sources, frequently referred to a "$FOO", such a thing does not, nor did not, ever exist under that particular name." As an example, I'd do this to chatter (signals intelligence), and then link to traffic analysis. Traffic analysis indeed needs enhancement, as it really doesn't deal with the intelligence discipline; NSA has a whole traffic analysis career management field. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The issue of orphaned articles on individual prisoners, documents, etc. is a separate but not unrelated issue....said Howard C. Berkowitz (talk)

a proposal to Howard and George to end this stalemate

I think both of you would agree that there's no sense in having this article sitting in the Discussion page. Let's see if we can agree on some small, initial things.

There is a Wikipedia article called "FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation" -- it has at least one, and possibly many more, redirects from something very similar to the name of the present CZ article.

Its first paragraph reads: "The US Army Field Manual on Interrogation, sometimes known by the military nomenclature FM 34-52, is a 177 page manual describing to military interrogators how to conduct effective interrogations while conforming with US and international law. It has been replaced by FM 2-22.3 Human Intelligence Collector Operations."

I have asked Howard about this and he agrees, more or less, that this is indeed the case, although not necessarily up to date.

Howard states flatly, from his position as a Military Editor, that there is no such thing actually called the "United States Army Field Manual on interrogation".

George, as far as I know, you have not refuted Howard on this point, nor have you sourced any evidence that such a manual really exists.

If this manual, under that name does not exist, then we cannot have an article claiming that it does, particularly when that is the name of the article itself.

Therefore, what I propose is this: that the two of you agree upon the name of a renamed article. Then one of you MOVE the present article to that new name.

I suggest that you then rewrite the first paragraph, putting in more or less the same info that is in the WP article. PLUS a statement, or two or three or even ten sentences, saying that the American public, media, and Bus administration have misused this phrase, that it really doesn't exist, and that it has taken on a life of its own but that, actually, IT DOESN'T EXIST -- except, and note this carefully, Howard -- in the form noted in the renamed article.

Please don't argue with ME about this -- I don't want to hear any arguments from either of you. Just sit down for 5 minutes and come to an agreement on the name of the MOVED article.

George, if you won't come to an agreement with Howard about this, I will have to conclude that you have no interest in creating a successful article and I will strongly recommend to Larry that we carry out Howard's request for deletion.

So, guys, please get together on this! Once the article has been moved, and redirects created, I will then delete the remaining pages that have now been blanked.

Thanks! Hayford Peirce 01:07, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me try to do something; as mentioned above, there are really at least three topics mixed here. It hadn't registered, in the first note on the discussion page, that this went back to a two-year old article to avoid "from Wikipedia".

May I plead that when these are current events, old articles are a real problem, and it's better to have "from Wikipedia"? Further, when an article cites a document or a court case, it really helps to have some solid referencing to the primary document, not news reports and politicians' statements about it.

Modifying some material from above, I propose #1 to replace this, with seealsos to the others:

1. For information on current and past top-level U.S. policy on interrogation, see U.S. policy on intelligence interrogation (this is a LOT broader than war on terror). Possibly -- and this is a substantial piece of work: For a bibliography of U.S. guidance and policy, active and past, on interrogation catalog/bibliography subpage' It's not going to be dramatic; it's not going to have pictures of people waving documents that can't be read.
2. For general information on intelligence interrogation, see human-source intelligence and subarticles such as Elicitation (human-source intelligence) Howard C. Berkowitz 01:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)